What is God’s Heaven or plan at the end? Would you like it?

I have alienated some eastern writers by asking what would happen if a woman wanted two husbands. They tend to not make equality part of Heaven.Regards
DL

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Not only do Muslims get to experience the presence of God, but they get to engage in all sorts of illicit pleasures. So in answer to your question, if this is what heaven is, then yes I would like it !

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See, I've never understood the male attraction to virgins.If you know what you are doing, it would be incredibly boring, since the virgin doesn't know what they are doing and doesn't know what you are doing either.....oh, I think I understand now.

That view always reminds me of descriptions of a heroin-high. It can't be explained, supposedly, to somebody who has never experienced it. Once experienced, you can never get enough of it.There's a downside to heroin, of course.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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It was written that God purposes the 'restoration of all things' - It should come as no surprise that Gods given name 'YHWH' signifies 'He Causes to Become'. Following the exhaustion of Satan's actions, God announced he would restore His original design for mankind. Although it may be far out of reach for anyone today to understand what this may imply, we can rest easy knowing that it would be void of the endless list of problems from which we are plagued with.From a personal standpoint, given my age and experience in life, the thought of hope for mankind brings on a sense of peace.

God began with a Perfect universe. When did He screw it up?
God would not allow His Perfection to be blemished by something that He needs to fix later. "restoration of all things'" would be an admission that He failled somehow. Impossible for a God.How is your God allowed to foul up?Regards
DL

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God began with a Perfect universe. When did He screw it up?

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To my own knowledge the universe is functioning as designed. Whether mankind lives or perishes seems to have little or no consequences on that.

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God would not allow His Perfection to be blemished by something that He needs to fix later. "restoration of all things'" would be an admission that He failled somehow. Impossible for a God.

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God demonstrated that he would not direct his human creations like automatons or preprogrammed entities. He would either allow or disallow things to happen, however stating that God is somehow responsible, would be an oversight. Once he created free moral agents(in his own image) then all of the choices and implications would be made visible to them. This would include evil.

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How is your God allowed to foul up?

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In a case of an adult doing wrong, when would it be reasonable to hold the parents responsible for the actions of a full grown man? From a legal standpoint, this is inadmissible. The angel who became Satan was not an innocent or confused child. Although he did transpose his own choices onto humans, they too had the absolute power of choice. This alone demonstrates that they were both fully capable of making informed decisions. They could of simply told the angel to go away.I remain perplexed at how people seem hung up on the implications of absolute freedom. If God created us in His own image then we would have the awareness and capacity to manage all aspects of freedom. This would include right and wrong. While some seem to think that He could of created partial freedom, then the resulting conditions would not of been true to His own image.To help get a better grasp on the conditions of absolute freedom, we could look back into basic physics. The implications of the absolute freedom of bodies and movement are very much the same. It becomes obvious that absolute freedom can only be achieved when a specific set of conditions are met(as with absolute truth).The entire argument rests on the understanding of absolute freedom. It either exists or it doesn't. We either have the ability to discern right and wrong, or we don't. - just as the ability to exercise right and wrong would be made available to us.So the question remains, was the angel who became Satan defective or... flawed for turning against his maker? To help put this into perspective, we could look at the case of Job. Satan made the issue clear-cut in his case. Was Job loyal to God, or was he serving him only because of self-interest? Satan boasted that he could turn Job away by taking away all things which made him happy. When Job had lost all his possessions, all his children, and even his health, his wife urged him saying - Curse God and die!. But Job remained loyal, saying ”As one of the senseless women speaks, you speak also. Shall we accept merely what is good from the true God and not accept also what is bad?’ In all this the imperfect man Job did not sin.Looking further down the line we also have Jesus, one of the only other perfect beings to walk the earth since Adam and Eve.So we do have examples to demonstrate our capacity as humans in the face of evil under both perfect and imperfect states. It would seem to me that the logical choice for Satan's behavior was based on his own free will. In a case where he may have truly believed that he could of challenged God and won. Regardless, it would of been well within his own rights to do so.Whatever the case may be, there are no advantages in taking the path less traveled. We have ample reason to believe that God cares enough for his human creations to take care of them. Beyond the implications or weighing in Godly characteristics we are all merely humans trying to think like God.Edited by pbee, : typo

From an evolutionary view point, is anything in existence that has not been fully adapted or evolved excluded from the confines of the term perfect?If given to creation and one characteristic of YHWH “the Perfect” is represented in a Spirit of free will (doing as he pleases ), supposing mankind was created in his image, mankind’s Spirit of free will to explore and then experiment with lusts/curiosities, etc. such as greed/discontentment which in turn led to hatred/malevolence and the likes for it’s own benefit would simply imply the creation (mankind) “screwed it up“. Yet, only if mankind is fully evolved could one conclude that YHWH is indeed imperfect.Supposing YHWH also retains the knowledge and choice to explore and experiment with lusts/greed/malevolence and the likes yet never chooses them selfishly (but only for the benefit of mankind) indicates and affirms a difference or separation between the image or likeness of YHWH and mankind. This may bolster the notion of the evolution of mankind outside of the image (presence) of YHWH.If the complete evolution of man has yet to occur, it could be said that neither YHWH or the creation “screwed up”. Restoration & destruction , in this frame of thought would hinge upon mankind’s will. Each individual creation’s will would result in perfect creation or perfect destruction, both to the benefit of mankind as a whole first and the rest of the universe , including YHWH, as a by product of this evolutionary process. Granted this is based on the speculation that mankind is not fully evolved or perfected.If freedom (free will) is inclusive to perfection, then no mistake may have been made as of yet on the part of YHWH, but only possibly on the part of that which has been created(mankind). If so, all things may be an evolution towards something perfectly created or perfectly destroyed, affirming YHWH “the Perfect”.

pbeeYou say that Jesus and Adam and Eve were Perfect.I agree.This would mean that Eve made the right choice in taking a bite.
Without this knowledge we would know very little. Right?Regards
DL

BaileyEvolution does not have a Finnish line. It is continuous and ever lasting.God is Perfect and living in His Perfect universe at all times. Past, present and future. He never looses Perfection and neither do we. We are all evolving within this Perfection and God could pop up at any time and see the Same Perfect conditions that He left.Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

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This would mean that Eve made the right choice in taking a bite.
Without this knowledge we would know very little. Right?

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I don't know if saying Eve made 'the right choice' is an appropriate way to treat the account. I can't help but sense that the use of the term term *right could imply it was somehow beneficial or better.She did however make a decision which left no room for error. She chose to believe that God was dishonest and betrayed Him. From my own perspective, it was the wrong choice to make. But it was her choice nonetheless.

Every thing or issue has a good and bad side.To not know good and evil, and judge which is which it is, whatever it is, would take all our history and knowledge away from us.
If it comes to personal choice, who would not bite once or twice?Regards
DL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

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There is no possible way for anyone having even the slightest chance at knowing the right answer to that question.

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Even if they guess correctly, how could they possibly determine if they are right?

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It is therefore a total waste of time and thought to contemplate it for any longer than it takes to come to the first two conclusions stated above.

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Anybody who thinks they know is just a) making it up and choosing to believe it, or b) repeating what somebody told them and choosing to believe it.

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If we base our knowledge on scriptural information then this is not at all true. The ancient scriptures provide us with a great deal of information as to what is involved in the recovery of Satan's and Adam and Eve's actions.What is God’s Heaven or plan at the end? The bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. It is a good indication of a restoration of the original design or intent. It also seem literal, as in the earth we are walking on now.

Evolution does not have a finish line. It is infinite.
God is flawless and continuously living in His Perfect universe. Past, present and future. He never loses Perfection.
Here we’ll depart for a moment . Is free will not a part of God’s Perfection?Can that what God creates perfectly lose its perfection by its own free will?Did not a portion of his angels lose their perfection sometime into their existence and we, the people, lose ours, almost immediately, before even having a chance to procreate? Seeming that, somehow, imperfection can be ingrained into the conscience or DNA.Is this (imperfection) the cause for our Spirit, as well as a portion of angels, to not be able to sustain life in the Presence of God . to be expelled from his presence once imperfection is chosen or established?Is existence outside of the presence and unquestionable Knowledge of the God evidence of our imperfection?Does sin and decay exist at the right hand of the Perfect God?Do we, as a multitude, exist in his universe or in his Presence; that is, an undoubtable certainty of his existence and desire to co-exist with us?God’s perfect plan may be to evolve and establish a perfect understanding of what imperfection (sin) is and allow (freewill) each of his own accord to choose: perfection or imperfection; each to its own consequence.Does devolution have a finish line? Is it finite?Is evolution Perfect and of God, and devolution imperfect and of the devil?Has man not devolved, spiritually, from the Presence and Knowledge of God since being deceived, in the very beginnings, by the imperfect (that which chose imperfection by its own freewill)?Could, by understanding imperfection and its consequence, cause some to choose Perfection; in turn, continuing the evolution of being united within the Love and Understanding and Presence of The Almighty God? If this were God’s plan at the end, I might dig it.Obviously, I don’t actually know . but it’s something to think about, at least, for the sake of contrast.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Bailey
I don’t know where to start.
I do not read the Bible literally and therefore do not believe in angels and devils and talking snakes.
Angels, the word, represents good ideas and notions. Devils represent bad ideas and notions.Yes, free will is part of God’s Perfection. We all have it. The fact that you were not coerced to write here is an indicator of this. The only interference that God does with man that I know of is to let individuals know without a doubt that He exists. Prophets and shaman and a few others are the recipients of this interference.God, at no time, would allow imperfection to mare His otherwise Perfect universe. He began in Perfection and will not back slide to a lower position. What God would or could?
You seem to believe that evil is something that does not fit with Perfection. You would be wrong. As stated God would not allow imperfection to touch His works.
If evil were not a requirement for man then God would get rid of it. We need it to learn just what God wants us to learn.
There are other threads that speak to this issue.God is pleased with us as we speak.
His first two commands to us was to reproduce and learn of good and evil.
We are doing both well. We could not if evil were removed.
Knowing this, the only thing I have left to argue with God is the numbers or percentages of these numbers in our reality. They do go up and down and I argue that they should all be on a downward slope. They may be but I have yet to recognize it.Tell me, what was the first imperfection that you percieve and why is it imperfect?
Please remember that I do not read the Bible literally so speaking of devils and angels may not be fruitful.Regards
DL

"What is God’s Heaven or plan at the end? The bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. It is a good indication of a restoration of the original design or intent. It also seem literal, as in the earth we are walking on now."Are you saying that man somehow has the power to derail God's original plan.
We must then be more powerful than God Himself right.
I believe that things are going exactly as God wants or He would end it.
Please show just when we derailed God's plan.Regards
DL