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Author Topic:   Justification of Science?
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 6067 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 1 of 39 (406649)
06-21-2007 5:24 PM


Hi there. I am brand new here so I hope I am doing this right. I specifically sought out a forum like this and I hope its the right place to discuss this topic.
In another discussion today someone said
"it is interesting to see the ways that science backs up religious commands (like circing on day 8 when clotting factor is highest) but some feel like it is using science to justify G-d's commandments when in reality, G-d's commandments should be used to justify science, know what I mean?"
The converation was originally about the reasons behind circumcision.
But that statement got me thinking. I have never considered before that people thought that God can justify science, I always viewed it in another light. I would like to open a discussion about the statement and get a more diverse set of opinions on it.
Is that possible?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminWounded, posted 06-22-2007 4:40 AM Dragoness has not replied
 Message 3 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-22-2007 6:47 AM Dragoness has not replied
 Message 13 by Monk, posted 06-22-2007 11:57 PM Dragoness has replied

  
AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 39 (406740)
06-22-2007 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dragoness
06-21-2007 5:24 PM


Hi Dragoness,
This seems a little light as an OP for a topic, but I have to confess that I can't readily see what you could expand beyond giving us some more details of the light in which you have viewed the question.
Just add in a little bit more of your own views and I will promote this.
TTFN,
AW
P.S. That clotting factor thing sounds highly dubious to me, I can't find a single reference to any clotting factor which reaches peak level at day 8.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dragoness, posted 06-21-2007 5:24 PM Dragoness has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 3 of 39 (406750)
06-22-2007 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dragoness
06-21-2007 5:24 PM


it is interesting to see the ways that science backs up religious commands (like circing on day 8 when clotting factor is highest)...
Assuming that the eighth day is indeed the time for circumcision because that is when clotting is best - Having this information hardly requires a divine revelation. All the people of the time would need to do is make some observations themselves. Doing the science of the times.
That said, I'm not following your intentions for this topic.
Adminnemooseus

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dragoness, posted 06-21-2007 5:24 PM Dragoness has not replied

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 6067 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 4 of 39 (406814)
06-22-2007 2:43 PM


Well I must say that I didn't mean for that statment alone to be the basis for the discussion, just a jumping off place. It seems that as I ventured into the Religion forum at the mommy board I belong to I have noticed that many many people seem to believe that God and the Bible justify everything in science and space and that to believe that science stands for itself is considered "wrong"
The 8 day clotting factor thing was just one such example. It was argued that the REASON boys are circumsized at 8 days after birth is because the clotting factors are at their highest, therefore science justifying God's word. On the other hand it was argued that in the Jewish Faith (the belief in question) the 8th day is very scared and THAT is the reason for circumcision on the 8th day and there is in fact no scientific reason.
I was hoping to discuss the differences in beliefs. Does science speak for itself, or does everything in sciece somehow get justified by God's word?
I was also hoping that the many seeming knowledgable people here could share their views on that because it was the first time I have ever even heard that science was anything other than science.
(Sorry if I am scatterbrained, I have 3 kids under 5, so I am no where near as technical as most of the people here but I promise I'm not dumb!)

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 06-22-2007 8:25 PM Dragoness has replied
 Message 11 by Discreet Label, posted 06-22-2007 10:43 PM Dragoness has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 39 (406886)
06-22-2007 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dragoness
06-22-2007 2:43 PM


Hi Dragoness, welcome aboard!
I can tell you're somewhat surprised that your simple question is not being well received by moderators. This may be because we're accustomed to those on the side of science already being very familiar with science. As a general rule, those who come here who are unfamiliar with science are creationists or are at least deeply religious.
I'm going to release your thread to the [forum=-1] forum, but I'm going to ask participants to focus on the nature of science and on the distinction between scientific knowledge versus religious knowledge. Another way of how I'm thinking about this thread is that it will attempt to answer the question, "What is science, and how is it different from religion?"
Dragoness writes:
(Sorry if I am scatterbrained, I have 3 kids under 5, so I am no where near as technical as most of the people here but I promise I'm not dumb!)
You're not scatterbrained, but is it really possible that someone with 3 kids under 5 could have time for the Internet?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 2:43 PM Dragoness has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 9:22 PM Admin has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 39 (406887)
06-22-2007 8:26 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 6067 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 7 of 39 (406892)
06-22-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Admin
06-22-2007 8:25 PM


Thanks. I am certainly NOT a creationist, but I am a mom and not a scientist. I have no college education so my knowledge is somewhat limited, but I love to learn. When I wrote the question I was really not sure who made up this forum and was trying not to offend either side. I'm on the science side, lol.
As for finding the time. Well right now my two youngest are sleeping and my oldest is watching cartoons, so I am slacking on the internet rather than cleaning... oops. Usually though I eat my meals at the computer desk and use that time to review message boards and check my email. This results in a lot of spelling errors from typing one handed, so I apologize in advance.
I am hoping to gain some valuable insigt to the topic though. I really had NO idea that Creationists (or religious people ) really thought that God justifies science... like everything on this eatch is ruled by God. I just don;t buy that. And at risk of offending someone (because I know it offends my own husband) I actually laughed at loud at the notion of it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-22-2007 9:53 PM Dragoness has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 8 of 39 (406897)
06-22-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dragoness
06-22-2007 9:22 PM


God jusifies science?
...really thought that God justifies science...
What is meant by this little phrase? Are you saying that sciences function is to know the ways of God?
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for ” but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 9:22 PM Dragoness has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 10:19 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 6067 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 9 of 39 (406902)
06-22-2007 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Minnemooseus
06-22-2007 9:53 PM


Re: God jusifies science?
Well thats what I typed, but its not MY opinion at all. Its the opinion I want to discuss.
The person who made the comments was implying that everything we know in science can be justified by God in some way. So nothing is just science or fact, but everything was done that way BY God for a reason.
I don't buy it at all. But I wanted to see what others had to say about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-22-2007 9:53 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by anglagard, posted 06-22-2007 10:31 PM Dragoness has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 10 of 39 (406903)
06-22-2007 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dragoness
06-22-2007 10:19 PM


Re: God jusifies science?
What if God is everything and science is simply the best method by which one knows God because it is, among all methods, the least prone to error?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 10:19 PM Dragoness has not replied

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 11 of 39 (406904)
06-22-2007 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dragoness
06-22-2007 2:43 PM


I'm with Moose on this one, I am not 100% sure what you are trying to convey. However, I will give it a try based upon how I have interpreted your post.
I think the relationship you are trying to discuss is the reverse and a little difference. I think what you really were trying to aim for is this; does science validate God's writings. Especially if examine your example of 8th day circumcision.
In this particular example what you posted (I think) is that very religious people say that because science has noticed that clotting factors are highest on the 8th day it validates the teachings of God to circumcise on the 8th day. In this particular example the religious person has supplied an ad-hoc rationalization to believe in God; i.e. if God is right about circumcision (even though God never gave a detailed and pertinent reason why) it must mean that other teachings of God can, are or will be validated.
Basically in the long haul seriously religious people ultimately will utilize any thing that will validate their beliefs to continue to believe in what they believe. Some do it because they are intellectually lazy, others do it because they want reason and others yet do it because there is money to be made in believing it (or even acting like you believe it).
However, in regards to science I would say that science does not necessarily speak for itself, but science as a process for looking at the larger picture of natural processes in the world is truly justification by itself. I say this because in participating in science you get more than just a intuitive (i.e. attributing everything to higher being or just being intellectually lazy) look at the world. And while intuition, as a whole, is a fairly decent tool for making day to day decisions it is not the best tool for doing things that will have long range impact (i.e. building a structure, or developing medicine).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 2:43 PM Dragoness has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 11:16 PM Discreet Label has not replied

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 6067 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 12 of 39 (406913)
06-22-2007 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Discreet Label
06-22-2007 10:43 PM


You have interpretd my post correctly, I'm not so great with words these days. I think I went and had too many kids and lost some of my IQ

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Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 13 of 39 (406923)
06-22-2007 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dragoness
06-21-2007 5:24 PM


Faith
Thanks. I am certainly NOT a creationist . . .
Hi Dragoness,
I'm a creationist, what's wrong with that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dragoness, posted 06-21-2007 5:24 PM Dragoness has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dragoness, posted 06-23-2007 12:23 AM Monk has not replied

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 6067 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 14 of 39 (406932)
06-23-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Monk
06-22-2007 11:57 PM


Re: Faith
Nothing, but since I was mistaken for one at one point I wanted to clearly state who I am and who I am not. My husband is the Creationist in this family, not me.
Not sure where it is I said there was anything wrong with being a Creationist other than the fact that I don't agree with it as much as Creationists don't agree with me.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 06-23-2007 9:28 AM Dragoness has replied

  
WS-JW
Junior Member (Idle past 6110 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-04-2007


Message 15 of 39 (406953)
06-23-2007 2:10 AM


If you shut the door to your room, and think of these things, you come to the conclusion you were made and there is a God, why? because it's logical and makes sense. It's shocking to think you evolved from non-thinking matter isn't it? that is soil, water etc. Well of course it is. Paper does not write books. Authors write books. Especially 3 dimensional code, such as our genetic DNA code. On the size of a pin head that is the sperm. Of course these things don't arise by blind chance. I mean it's simply so obvious. But they are taught in schools that it arose on it's own in all seriousness. And now anything supernatural is not science. Every cell has to have 2000 perfect fits of "gloves" for it to work. You are made of trillions. Now we know there is no chance of this happening. No scientist leaves stuff to evolve. They use directional input to do things. So we know the creationist formula is right. Because where Time = infinity, there is a defective formula. Infinte time? But I thought there was just billionso of years? Only God the eternal one can do things in his mind, in eternity, oh thats right, he did. Not point in philopsaphising on "non God creation and design dellusion". If you thought you'd get out a cadillac just by shaking stuff you'd have to shake a mighty long time wouldn't you? With air tight cyliders etc. Well, the chances you might almost write infinity. But, it hasn't always been there, like God... let alone trillions of cells forming together, plus the blue print code to make more babies on the size of a sperm pin head. Well of course this is obvious stuff. Relax, read your Bible, and discover logical truth.

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-23-2007 2:39 AM WS-JW has replied
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