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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 841 of 1198 (715028)
12-31-2013 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 839 by jar
12-31-2013 11:57 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Gen 1:26-27
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
Why is God not talking about them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 839 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 842 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 4:29 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 842 of 1198 (715031)
12-31-2013 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 841 by Phat
12-31-2013 4:07 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Too funny.
For the same reason the god character in Genesis 1 is not the god character in Genesis 2&3. For the same reason they were created in a totally different manner. For the same reason Adam & Eve were created hundreds if not thousands of years before the man and woman in Genesis 1.
They are totally different stories written by totally different peoples from totally different eras.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Phat, posted 12-31-2013 4:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by Phat, posted 12-31-2013 4:35 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 843 of 1198 (715032)
12-31-2013 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 842 by jar
12-31-2013 4:29 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
are you saying that GOD the creator of all seen and unseen has nothing to do with the Bible? I cant buy the idea that uninspired humans wrote the whole darn thing. of course...why am i even asking you? I am quite sure that GOD does not inspire you either.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 4:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 844 of 1198 (715037)
12-31-2013 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 837 by ringo
12-31-2013 11:05 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
The emperor has no clothes.
perhaps you could elucidate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by ringo, posted 12-31-2013 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 874 by ringo, posted 01-02-2014 11:32 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 845 of 1198 (715038)
12-31-2013 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Phat
12-31-2013 4:35 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
LOL.
What does the evidence show?
Of course God has little or nothing to do with the Bible, any of them.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Phat, posted 12-31-2013 4:35 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 847 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2013 5:04 PM jar has replied
 Message 848 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2013 5:09 PM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 846 of 1198 (715039)
12-31-2013 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 840 by Tangle
12-31-2013 12:34 PM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
You're blithering - just answer the question.
Oh but I did answer your question. But one first has to establish whether you want me to answer it from a non-sensical, subjective, humanistic standpoint, which means any answer will suffice, seeing there is no standard to begin with.
or do you want me to answer it from an objective, Biblical standard.
One has to distinguish between these two or the casual reader will actually get the mistaken idea you understand what you are talking about from any rational standard
Here is an illustration. Give two examples of "unethical" behavior from the humanist standpoint, then tell me how you arrived at that conclusion
Then Ill be happy to explain what some call Original Sin
BTW, why would a skeptic, agnostic, atheist, or whatever be interested in a concept so far from reality, atleast from there perspective. Thats weird
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2013 12:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 852 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2013 8:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 847 of 1198 (715040)
12-31-2013 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 845 by jar
12-31-2013 4:51 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
LOL.
What does the evidence show?
Of course God has little or nothing to do with the Bible, any of them.
Hes a deist Phat that likes Jesus enough to be losely called a Christian. You could call him a term from any religion and it would fit and it would not offend him
His problems are larger than whether he believes in actual Christianity, as its presented in the Bible
Jars "evidence" is whatever it needs to be at any given moment. He'll change it like you change underware
No standards of reality and what logic will allow, means he will believe just about anything
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 4:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 849 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 5:11 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 848 of 1198 (715041)
12-31-2013 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 845 by jar
12-31-2013 4:51 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
LOL.
What does the evidence show?
Of course God has little or nothing to do with the Bible, any of them.
And of course he does not how he came to the comprehensive conclusion that God has nothing to do with it. And this is a universal negative, but we are expected to accept his lose conclusion on his words alone
See what I mean

This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 4:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 850 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 5:31 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 849 of 1198 (715042)
12-31-2013 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 847 by Dawn Bertot
12-31-2013 5:04 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
He is a Christian, not loosely called a Christian, but a Christian from a long line of Christians.
Try truth and honesty Dawn, you might even learn to like it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2013 5:04 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 850 of 1198 (715043)
12-31-2013 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 848 by Dawn Bertot
12-31-2013 5:09 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
And of course he does not how he came to the comprehensive conclusion that God has nothing to do with it. And this is a universal negative, but we are expected to accept his lose conclusion on his words alone
Again, try honesty Dawn.
Did I say (and you even quote):
quote:
What does the evidence show?
Of course God has little or nothing to do with the Bible, any of them.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 848 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2013 5:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 856 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-01-2014 2:05 AM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 851 of 1198 (715044)
12-31-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by Dawn Bertot
12-30-2013 8:47 PM


Re: Basic Structure of Matthew's
Dawn Bertot,
I want to thank you for your encouragement. I am off to something right now but hope to digest your post more thoroughly latter.
And I may have a question for you in turn as fellowship is so useful.
thank the Lord for the last 365 days of 2013.
jaywill
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-30-2013 8:47 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 852 of 1198 (715057)
12-31-2013 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 846 by Dawn Bertot
12-31-2013 5:00 PM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Still blithering, just answer the question.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 846 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2013 5:00 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 853 of 1198 (715059)
12-31-2013 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by Dawn Bertot
12-31-2013 8:18 AM


injustice
Dawn Bertot writes:
C. Seriously? You want to know the answer to a question from the very same book you call nonsensical. If you consider the book as nonsense, how will any answer from it help you
i got here late and haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if i'm a little off track here. but perhaps you're putting the card before the horse. perhaps the answer to question is the reason people consider the book nonsense. or perhaps the inability to provide a good answer for hard questions like these.
but, instead of arguing that point, i'd like to argue another: the book's not nonsense. your presentation and reading of it is. because here's the answer:
quote:
"blasphemy! for you to do such a thing! to kill the innocent with the wicked, so that the innocent are like the wicked. blasphemy! will the judge of all the earth not do justice?"
-- abraham, genesis 18:25.
my own rendering, because the standard english "that be far from thee" really doesn't portray the weight of abraham charging yahweh with חָלִלָה, "sacrilege". here, abraham is charging yahweh with violating some objective morality -- that killing innocent people for the sake of punishing the wicked is unjust -- and yahweh agrees. similarly:
quote:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16)
it is a pretty common concept that it's not just to punish someone else for another person's sin, particularly if the wage of that sin is death. the torah abides by this notion of justice. similarly, the torah also considers child sacrifice abhorrent.
those are the answers the bible has for the question why it's moral to punish children mankind for the sin of adam. the answer is that says the opposite. i'll just sit here and wait for you to agree with what the bible says now.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2013 8:18 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 854 by Raphael, posted 12-31-2013 10:46 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 855 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-01-2014 1:39 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 854 of 1198 (715063)
12-31-2013 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 853 by arachnophilia
12-31-2013 9:01 PM


Re: injustice
Hey all! I have no claim to pools of wisdom or knowledge, but I saw the conversation and thought I'd shed some insight. arach it has been awhile, I don't know if you remember me or not, but i remember some good times in chat years ago with Jon and Phat
I'm also here late, so sorry if I'm rehashing. But. Staying on topic.
arachnophilia writes:
but, instead of arguing that point, i'd like to argue another: the book's not nonsense. your presentation and reading of it is. because here's the answer:
quote:
"blasphemy! for you to do such a thing! to kill the innocent with the wicked, so that the innocent are like the wicked. blasphemy! will the judge of all the earth not do justice?"
-- abraham, genesis 18:25.
So here we see a fundamental problem. A God who claims to be just is, in reality, being called out for being unjust; for destroying the righteous as well as the wicked. But your quote fails to include the context in which it is included my friend. This is not a situation in which Abraham is "calling God out" for being unjust, this is something else altogether. Let's actually read the text:
Genesis 18:22-26 writes:
So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just? 26 And the Lord said, If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.
Abraham then goes on to continue bargaining with God, interceding on the behalf of these people. It gets to the point where God says, "yeah man, if there are even 10 righteous people up in there, I won't destroy anyone." (my words, paraphrase ). Here we see some of this God's character. He is not willing that any should die, but he is, by nature, the antithesis of darkness. "Wickedness" if you will, or even "Sin." But even more, he sees them living in this wickedness, a kind of "living death" as Paul would write. I have no claim to know the mind of God. But what does the text actually say?
Here we see him leave a huge window for mercy, for grace. And if we were to continue to read this book, we might find that it is more about that than anything else.
arachnophilia writes:
those are the answers the bible has for the question why it's moral to punish children mankind for the sin of adam. the answer is that says the opposite. i'll just sit here and wait for you to agree with what the bible says now.
Please throw some text in with that claim man. I can't recall a text that says "you will all be punished because adam sinned." Rather, I see texs like this one:
Romans 5:12-16 writes:
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
So sure, we could say that because Adam sinned, he deserved the punishment, not us specifically. But is it that simple? Maybe. Maybe not.
What I do know is we underestimate the sovereignty of God. If you're going to quote scripture to disprove scripture, then I must ask, what is the standard for determining words like "moral" or "sin" or even "justice?" How can you even use the word "moral" in your question when, by the nature of your question, you are acknowledging that God is the standard for morality? If God is the standard, what business do we have asking if what he does it moral when he defines it? Just curious If you want to talk about morality, please give another standard outside of God to define what is "moral" and what is "immoral."
Anyway. Why even hammer the holiness, morality, justice, and other qualities of God above ours when He dropped all the requiring us to be like that in a heartbeat just to save us? It's pretty sobering really, to think that no matter how "good" of a person I think I am, I will never live up to God's standard on my own. I dunno man. No matter how hard I try to sound as smart as you guys, I'll never be able to convince you with my human wisdom. Paul truly says it better than I ever could:
Romans 5:20-21 writes:
20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Regards yall! And happy new year!
- Raph
Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by arachnophilia, posted 12-31-2013 9:01 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 862 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2014 12:37 PM Raphael has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 855 of 1198 (715070)
01-01-2014 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 853 by arachnophilia
12-31-2013 9:01 PM


Re: injustice
your presentation and reading of it is. because here's the answer:
Nows who is getting the Hart before the corse. I didnt present anything yet, for you to consider it nonsense
that killing innocent people for the sake of punishing the wicked is unjust -- and yahweh agrees. similarly:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A common mistake you are making. Since God did in many instances destroy children with wicked parents, including Sodom and the city of the plains, it follows that Duet is speaking about Spiritual death
Your example of Sodom defeats your own purposes and argument
"The wages of sin is death" Romans
"The soul that sins, it shall die"
"If you eat of the tree you will surely die". Since they didnt die physically immediately, it follows that spiritual death was under consideration, more so than physical
Just like you failed to see the bigger picture with regard to Prophecy and who is the object of Prophecy, you fail to see the big picture of Gods plan concerning Sin and death
"I will punish the sins of the fathers to the forth and Fifth generation" Exodus 20:5
"Fear not him that can destroy the body, but fear him that can destroy the body and soul in Hell"
Physical death is often used as a type or shadow, of spiritual death
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by arachnophilia, posted 12-31-2013 9:01 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2014 12:10 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
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