God: Knowable or not Knowable?

No problem. Thanks for discussing. It's very difficult to find someone I can ask questions to without them getting defensive and hurt. I don't want to hurt people, I just want to try and understand things from other people's views. I want to see if I can view things like that. I want to see if I'm missing something. I want to learn.Thanks for taking the time to discuss things. And remember, you're not only talking to me, I bet there's a bunch of people reading this that will never post here. They're worth speaking out to as well.And have fun I didn't know, and I still don't know.I said you seem to know. And I said that because you make a lot of statements about how God is (or maybe how you think He is?). I was wondering how you knew those things. Why can there be only One? I agree with you that it would be simpler and easier to keep-track-of if there was only one. But, well, life and reality isn't always simple and easy just because that's nice and neat. In fact, usually it's complicated and messy. What makes you think that because it's cleaner to have only one God, there actually really is only one God? I also agree that it sucks if we're nothing more than a chess game, or gambling tokens. But, well, it sucks that we don't have wings for flying too. It also sucks that many people die of hunger every day. Life doesn't seem to cater to how we would like things to be, it's simply the way things are. Sure. But, well, you started this with an "if". It's certainly possible that this "if" is wrong. There's nothing to say one way or the other. Reality has no responsibility to be reasonable or logical, or any other ordered structure we'ed like it to be. No. I recognized that you are a part of a large section of the population that believes in "God". I am simply not ignorant of major religions, that's all. I definitely don't know that you "know" Him. In fact, that's exactly what I'm questioning I certainly understand that you want to know him, and possibly think you know him. But I certainly don't think you know him. I don't see how you could. I understand what you mean.But some people "commune with God" and become very nice, tolerant, loving, caring people. Others "commune with God" and become vindictive, hateful, oppresive and greedy.They both tell me it's the same God.Who can I trust? Why must one even be true? There's nothing for me to look at to compare with the two polar opposite ideas for me to make my own decision. First - I don't find this true. And, even if it is true, people also love to hate many, many things. This doesn't make any of those things true, or real. Things are real and true to me because they are real and true, they can be shown. What other people think (hate or love) doesn't matter.Second - "He" seems to have chosen you, along with many other people. Some of those people are very nice. Some are very bad. Some commit suicide and even convince others to do the same. All because they say "He" chose them. I don't see how I can know that the "He" that chose you is different from the "He" that chose others. Or even which ones may be imagining things.Third - That's really nice of Him. Other people tell me that "their God" is willing to die for them too. Who can I believe? Why should I believe either one? Which is better? How do I even know it's not just people imagining things?Fourth - How do you recognize His Image in others? Because they're good people? I know good people who believe in God. I know good people who adamantly do not believe in God. I know good people who believe in other Gods. How do I know who's telling the truth? How do I know it's not just their imagination?Stile's maing point: I agree with your statement here, it seems very intuitive to me. But what I observe in people doesn't reflect this structure at all.As I said above, some people are "touched by God" and become very nice, loving people. Others are "touched by God" and become hateful, oppresive people.They all say it's "God".How do I know which one is true?How do I know either is true? Why can't they both be wrong?The very fact that there are such varying descriptions and results from being "with God" implys to me that:1. God doesn't exist, or doesn't interact with humans at all.2. Multiple God's exist.3. One God exists, can't connect with everyone (for whatever reason) and some of those people are either imagining things or lying.And my problem is that I see no way for me to differentiate between any of these choices. I don't see how I can identify if any of them are true. I don't see how I can identify if any of them are false (then I could eliminate them as choices).Do you see any other choices?

Jon,If god is omnipotent then he has the power to make someone know him. QED.No?

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I think this premise is false, but it doesn't really matter.

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Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encyclopedia Brittanica, on debate

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Tell me, how would he go about doing that?

I don't believe that God could actually make you know Him. I believe that IF God actually wants you to get to know Him, He may persuade you to consider the option a variety of ways! God doesn't just want to sign people up for the crazy club! I believe that He wants you to experience a daily communion and a refreshing personal insight. You may have a different mission in life than I do. Catholic Scientist has yet another mission.Even folks like Crashfrog, who declare that absence of evidence equates to evidence of absence are not forgotten.The Lord intercedes for us daily. Why bother disproving Him? Just go with the flow!

Thou sayest: And yet, the rest of thy post (which should have listed those ways) offers no backing for the original claim whatsoever. After all, I did ask how. If there is a way how, I expect to be told what that is, not simply that it exists (since after all, that it exists has been thine unsupported assertion throughout this thread and others).So... gonna nish that thought...?Jon

Well, why ask me? Are you so logical that you think prayer irrelevant?Omnipotent Beings understand worms better than scientists do. Oh that a worm may seek a higher calling!Did that answer your question or am I just further entangling myself in the net of illogic?Answer your own question: Howwould you go about asking God to become knowable?

How utterly pathetic. This must be close the lowest thou'st stooped in a long while. Pathetic. Of course it didn't. Why not just lay out how God would make himself knowable. I answered that question already in Message 1.Thou claimest God is knowable, and that he has ways of making himself known. Why not tell me what those ways are? Unless, of course, thou'st not a damn clue about what thou speakest.Jon

Yup, and if all x are y then any x is y. If god is all-powerful, then he has any power, including the ability to make us know him. I dunno. How does Superman fly?Magic?I mean, he's omnipotent, he could do it in any way.Now, that God is knowable doesn't mean that some people actually do know him. God very well might not be known, but you cannot say that he is unknowable if he is omnipotent.

so you assert that we need empathy in order to understand GOD?How did you arrive at this assertion? Does thou not have relationships with people that thou understandeth not?

Thats a good point. Our logic cannot write the rules on a relationship with the Creator unless we consciously believed that He was all in our mind, anyway!

You have no support for your assertion, then, I take it?Edited by Jon, :

Can you answer the question, perhaps? HOW would God make himself knowable?Edited by Jon, :

*sigh* This is off-topic, Phat.

Just logic.Omnipotence is any power. Can he make us know him? Sure, he can do anything.What's the problem?Just because I can't explain how doesn't mean it is impossible.Is this really all you got? I thought you were better than that.And while we're supporting assertions, why don't you provide some support for this premise:

quote:

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To empathise with God would require us to see the world the way God does.

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Even without my crushing irrefutable argument , your argument falls apart because of this false premise.