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Author Topic:   How can you identify the word of God without critical assessment of God?
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 1 of 41 (445962)
01-04-2008 3:12 PM


If something were presented as the word of God, and if you accept that you should not question the word of God, how could you determine whether or not it is indeed the word of God?
There may be prophets and there may be false prophets. There may be holy books and there may be false books. How can you tell them apart without critically assessing them using your fallible mortal understanding?
An example could be choosing between the Oahspe and the Bible as a religious works. Could your choice as to which one of them is God's word be based on anything other than mortal assessment?
Edited by sinequanon, : Corrected spelling of oahspe. See Message 3 by arachnophilia for another example.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by tesla, posted 01-04-2008 3:20 PM sinequanon has replied
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2008 3:37 PM sinequanon has not replied
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 01-05-2008 1:40 PM sinequanon has replied
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 01-05-2008 4:57 PM sinequanon has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 2 of 41 (445965)
01-04-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sinequanon
01-04-2008 3:12 PM


how i do it
my belief: john 1:1
"in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word and God were one"
by this question: how do you speak without a mouth?
i arrived to this conclusion: God is energy and the word is its consciousness. similarly, does man have a body and a consciousness, but without both of them, a man is not a man, but either a dead man, or a man who is alive and has both.
therefore, it is not a blasphemy to question the documents of man, professing to be the "word" without proof. no evidence has been shown that was written by God accept the universe, and the language of the universe isn't fully understood. to talk to God, you must first learn his language.
this is my opinion, and not a definite statement concerning what another may choose or not choose to believe.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 41 (445969)
01-04-2008 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sinequanon
01-04-2008 3:12 PM


perhaps a more familiar example?
not many people here are likely to be familiar with the oahspe (indeed, i had to wiki it) so let me rephrase the question using examples more generally at hand: say the book of mormon.
now, i can point out some historical problems with it, but i can do the same with the bible too. neither is quite as old as it claims to be. but what's to say that joseph smith was not a divinely inspired prophet?
once we hammer out this slightly more obvious example, perhaps we can go on to stuff like the apocrypha and pseudepigraphica -- stuff written around the time of the bible, some of it referenced by the bible itself... and what makes those not the word of god, when the bible is?


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 Message 4 by tesla, posted 01-04-2008 3:50 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 4 of 41 (445973)
01-04-2008 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
01-04-2008 3:37 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
if Joe blow went out and ate "magic mushrooms" then Joe blow writes his revelation on God, and then Joe blow disappears so you cant talk to him, the choice whether or not you want to believe the material is up to the reader.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2008 3:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2008 3:55 PM tesla has replied

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 5 of 41 (445974)
01-04-2008 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by tesla
01-04-2008 3:20 PM


Re: how i do it
my belief: john 1:1
"in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word and God were one"
Is this your belief because it is stated in the Bible? Or is it a coincidence that your belief is in the Bible?
Is it your opinion that the Bible may not be the word of God, and may be erroneous, mistaken or misleading?

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 41 (445977)
01-04-2008 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by tesla
01-04-2008 3:50 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
if Joe blow went out and ate "magic mushrooms" then Joe blow writes his revelation on God, and then Joe blow disappears so you cant talk to him, the choice whether or not you want to believe the material is up to the reader.
well, yes, of course. i think what we're getting at is how people come to their conclusions on what to believe in, and what not to believe in.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by tesla, posted 01-04-2008 3:50 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by tesla, posted 01-04-2008 4:01 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 7 of 41 (445978)
01-04-2008 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by sinequanon
01-04-2008 3:51 PM


Re: how i do it
Is this your belief because it is stated in the Bible? Or is it a coincidence that your belief is in the Bible?
its my belief because it makes sense in the laws of the universe as i have interpreted them by observations of what is "real"
Edited by tesla, : spelling

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by sinequanon, posted 01-04-2008 3:51 PM sinequanon has not replied

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tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 8 of 41 (445981)
01-04-2008 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
01-04-2008 3:55 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
well, yes, of course. i think what we're getting at is how people come to their conclusions on what to believe in, and what not to believe in.
exactly. its only by choice that anyone believes anything.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2008 3:55 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by sinequanon, posted 01-04-2008 4:11 PM tesla has replied
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2008 5:06 PM tesla has replied

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 9 of 41 (445991)
01-04-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by tesla
01-04-2008 4:01 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
exactly. its only by choice that anyone believes anything.
But choice can be random, educated, inspired etc.
If it is random or educated, is it not fallible? Should the person then be aware there is a possibility that their God is false?

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 Message 30 by bluegenes, posted 01-05-2008 3:26 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 10 of 41 (445996)
01-04-2008 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by sinequanon
01-04-2008 4:11 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
But choice can be random, educated, inspired etc.
of course. but you cannot convince anyone that what your evaluation of what is real, is real, without proof. you can only provide evidence and hope they connect the dots.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by sinequanon, posted 01-04-2008 4:11 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 41 (446023)
01-04-2008 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by tesla
01-04-2008 4:01 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
exactly. its only by choice that anyone believes anything.
not to join the pile on, but your response is tautological. of course it's by choice -- we're asking how those choices are made. what process is used? what factors are taken into account, if any?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by tesla, posted 01-04-2008 4:01 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by tesla, posted 01-04-2008 5:15 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 12 of 41 (446025)
01-04-2008 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
01-04-2008 5:06 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
not to join the pile on, but your response is tautological. of course it's by choice -- we're asking how those choices are made. what process is used? what factors are taken into account, if any?
its entirely dependant on the psychology of the individual. a schizophrenic would perceive reality much differently than a scientist.
you could find in psychology that there are similarities on how the thinking process works on most individuals. but it is still an independent process to each person. with many different factors that decide the outcome of how a person thinks, by what has affected them in their lives.
the way a person views life is validated by the individual over time, and once a person has a long established point of viewing, it is very difficult for the mind to rationalize any other viewing perspective.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2008 5:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 41 (446180)
01-05-2008 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by tesla
01-04-2008 5:15 PM


Re: perhaps a more familiar example?
er, i'm talking past you i think.
but it is still an independent process to each person.
yes -- what i'd like to know is each person's independent process, not the "right" one. how do you decide? "i don't" is a perfectly valid response.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


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sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 14 of 41 (446248)
01-05-2008 12:58 PM


Critical assessment of God
Here's an example I spotted...
DJBigz writes:
and if god was so awesome he should have realized back then that most of the information in the bible would be controversial. why would a god make something that could be proven wrong/inaccurate. for being all knowing most stuff in the bible seams it was just written by different men during that time making stuff up or elaborating the truth to make it seam magical.
http://EvC Forum: ignorance of creationism -->EvC Forum: ignorance of creationism
It assumes that a human can have the understanding to determine what God would or wouldn't do (Provided DJBigz is actually human ).
Edited by sinequanon, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 1:01 PM sinequanon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 41 (446249)
01-05-2008 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by sinequanon
01-05-2008 12:58 PM


Re: Critical assessment of God
What is wrong with that?
Not sure I understand the issue. It seems all that says is "If God intended for the Bible to be some clear set of instructions, She failed."

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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