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Author Topic:   God of Death or Love
Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 1 of 31 (455842)
02-14-2008 2:50 AM


I'll rephrase the whole topic =) Starting from:
In the New testament God is described as being "loving of all his children", but then again in the old testament he is also displayed as a God of death, this evidence is supplied here ->
According to selected verified extracts from bible itself god has killed about [2,270,365] that is excluding the population of the world during Noah's flood, and other important events that didn't include exact numbers.
This information is obtained from:
http://www.gospeakit.com/science/bible-body-count.html
My question is:
How can you follow a book which contains a God who is displayed as loving in the New Testament yet of war and death in the Old Testament?
{This promoted message 1 was message 5 of the proposed topic of the same name. Maybe it's better than the original message 1, maybe not. - Adminnemooseus}

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Larni, posted 02-14-2008 3:48 AM Logic has not replied
 Message 3 by iano, posted 02-14-2008 8:58 AM Logic has not replied
 Message 4 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-14-2008 10:09 AM Logic has not replied
 Message 5 by Creationista, posted 02-14-2008 1:29 PM Logic has not replied
 Message 14 by I-am-created, posted 02-17-2008 11:36 PM Logic has not replied
 Message 15 by Rrhain, posted 02-18-2008 6:31 AM Logic has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 2 of 31 (455844)
02-14-2008 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-14-2008 2:50 AM


The thing is that if you don't love the xian god; bam! straight to hell. The fact that the xian god has a history of murder only goes to embiggen the threat.
Basically it's the xian god saying: "love me, or you go to hell. You go to hell and you die".
Yay! Two cartoon quotes for the price of one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 2:50 AM Logic has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 31 (455857)
02-14-2008 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-14-2008 2:50 AM


The simplest answer to your question is to state that God is not a unidimensional personality. No more than we are uni-dimensional personalities. God is love at times. God is wrath at times. God is just(ice) at times. Just like we are.
When a judge acts with justice against an offender it says nothing about the love he has for his children. When he exposes the offender to the wrath of society in his casting that offender into prison it says nothing about the love he has for his children.
The Old Testament illustrates aspects of the character of God in the mode of lawgiver and law enforcer. But is also illustrates God's love for his 'children' in the care he exercised towards the Israelites.
The New Testament illustrates aspects of the character of God in the mode of forgiver, redeemer, loving father of adopted children. But it also illustrates God as justice and wrath against the sin of those who have not (yet) been adopted. Of all the characters in the NT, it is Jesus who talks and warns most about the wrath of God and judgement to come.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 2:50 AM Logic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PurplyBear, posted 02-17-2008 4:16 PM iano has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 31 (455869)
02-14-2008 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-14-2008 2:50 AM


How can you follow a book which contains a God who is displayed as loving in the New Testament yet of war and death in the Old Testament?
A couple reasons I can come up with...
Being loving and of war and death are not necessarily mutually exclusive nor contradictory (iano explained this in detail) so its a non-issue.
Because the New Testament is just that, the new one. It is an update to the old one and takes precedence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 2:50 AM Logic has not replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 5 of 31 (455899)
02-14-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-14-2008 2:50 AM


God is not defined by the political and social leanings of those who follow him, nor the books attributed to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 2:50 AM Logic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-14-2008 2:08 PM Creationista has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 31 (455907)
02-14-2008 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Creationista
02-14-2008 1:29 PM


God is not defined by the political and social leanings of those who follow him, nor the books attributed to him.
The question is not about how god is defined. The question is how can you follow the Bible when it has an apparent contradiction of god being both "of love" and "of death".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Creationista, posted 02-14-2008 1:29 PM Creationista has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Creationista, posted 02-14-2008 2:16 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 7 of 31 (455908)
02-14-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
02-14-2008 2:08 PM


The problem is that God and the bible are being equated here. It's a misleading question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-14-2008 2:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-14-2008 2:24 PM Creationista has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 31 (455910)
02-14-2008 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Creationista
02-14-2008 2:16 PM


The problem is that God and the bible are being equated here.
No they're not. From the OP:
quote:
In the New testament God is described as being "loving of all his children", but then again in the old testament he is also displayed as a God of death
and:
quote:
My question is:
How can you follow a book which contains a God who is displayed as loving in the New Testament yet of war and death in the Old Testament?
Emphasis added.
How is it equating the bible and god when it says the bible is describing god? To be equating them, it would have to say that the bible is god.
It's a misleading question.
No its not. It fairly straight forward.
Let me re-phrase it for you.
How can you trust the bible when its description of god changes throughout?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Creationista, posted 02-14-2008 2:16 PM Creationista has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Creationista, posted 02-14-2008 2:40 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 9 of 31 (455919)
02-14-2008 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
02-14-2008 2:24 PM


WEll. considering the last post this person made on the subject which didn't get promoted, you're quite mistaken. Also, read the title. It doesn't say "Bible of Death or Bible of Love," does it?
It's very easy to trust books for what they are. The bible is a religious and political document developed more or less specifically by and for a very religious and political group of people, namely Jews of various persuasions. Considering the current political and religious attitudes of some, it's clear this is a cultural issue that hasn't been resolved. It's not peculiar to Jews only, of course, any group with such strang historical ties has similar problems of destructive nationalism. It's just the way it is. But, you have to recognize books for what they are. Other books are similar in theme. They are justifications for the attitudes of people. They are not verbatim divine breath, nor can they legitimately be defended as such.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-14-2008 2:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 4:29 PM Creationista has replied

  
Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 10 of 31 (455951)
02-14-2008 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Creationista
02-14-2008 2:40 PM


I'm glad see people took this seriously. I really liked the quote about god being a justice giver; however this has a major flaw.
Did you first check the references provided within the web-link. Because in a lot of cases God just kills for sake of showing his authority, there was no justice to be had it was just a means in which to show his divine power. The difference being a court judge doesn’t sentence someone to death for not following orders . well maybe in early Europe they did however by modern standards they don’t.
Now back to my question; why is god so different between the two testaments. If you look at links provided you can see from the righting itself that god acts in 2 different manners, which to me shows that we have 2 different writers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Creationista, posted 02-14-2008 2:40 PM Creationista has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ICANT, posted 02-14-2008 5:03 PM Logic has not replied
 Message 12 by Creationista, posted 02-14-2008 9:54 PM Logic has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 11 of 31 (455958)
02-14-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Logic
02-14-2008 4:29 PM


Re-Why is God so different?
Hi Logic,
Logic writes:
Now back to my question; why is god so different between the two testaments.
In the Old Testament He was dealing with people under a law covenant.
In the New Testament He is dealing with people under a grace covenant.
The KJV of the Bible is 66 books written by 40 different writters.
Since God gets blammed for everything especially by those who don't believe He exists. I would like to examine a couple of facts.
The death rate is 100%. So if God is responsible for their death you can change that number.
The only way you get out of this life so far is by death.
Hebr. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The time of your appointment with death is already set so what difference does it make in what way you go. You are going at that moment regardless. Howard Hughes proved that.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 4:29 PM Logic has not replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 12 of 31 (455992)
02-14-2008 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Logic
02-14-2008 4:29 PM


I don't think you meant to respond to me. None of those were my arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 4:29 PM Logic has not replied

  
PurplyBear
Junior Member (Idle past 5796 days)
Posts: 20
From: Indianapolis, Indiana
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 13 of 31 (456381)
02-17-2008 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
02-14-2008 8:58 AM


God was a ruthless murder, psychotic assassin, and straight up killer.
He hardened hearts of people so they could do acts of evil. These are not traits of a lawgiver. They are traits of a sick demented person that needs locked up. I suggest you watch "Shoot 'Em Up" - pointless murder like in the bible.
You mention god's love towards Israel. The atrocities he committed against those who rubbed his grain are 100% unacceptable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 02-14-2008 8:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 02-19-2008 8:55 AM PurplyBear has not replied

  
I-am-created
Junior Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 12
From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
Joined: 02-10-2008


Message 14 of 31 (456429)
02-17-2008 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-14-2008 2:50 AM


The reason why you think that God in the OT is a god of death and war is because we all deserve death and that is exactly what he gave them. There has only ever been one person who has been without sin, Jesus Christ, and it is because of the perfect sacrifice that he made that God does not deal with us in the same manner.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
Any single sin that we commit is enough to seal our fate, but we commit multitudes of sins even in a single day. Imagine the 'debt' in sins that you would owe in a short span of your life. Enough to warrant death? Most definitely.
Luckily, God sent his Son to die for our sins so that our 'sin debt' is cancelled out and we are seen with the righteousness that Christ achieved in the eyes of God. That is the Good News of the New Testament and why you think that it is a different god. In reality, the wrath of God was satisfied by Christ and we get to see his unfailing love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 2:50 AM Logic has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 15 of 31 (456456)
02-18-2008 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-14-2008 2:50 AM


Logic writes:
quote:
How can you follow a book which contains a God who is displayed as loving in the New Testament yet of war and death in the Old Testament?
You assume that the god of the New Testament is the same god as the god of the Old.
Oh, Christians would love to have you believe that they're the same god, but Jews don't seem to agree. The fact that there is this figure, "Jesus," who claims to be god is a huge sticking point. It is clear that they are not talking about the same being.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-14-2008 2:50 AM Logic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by I-am-created, posted 02-18-2008 6:43 AM Rrhain has replied

  
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