Since it IS Christmas time......

Like I've said before: I celebrate the tradition. Christmas has become nothing more than a time of the year to get together with family and enjoy their company. It is a holiday recognized worldwide (practically). It is one time of the year we all get to spread cheer and be merry.Like the song "Santa Clause is Coming to Town" says: "You better be good for goodness sake!"

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Great post buz. You put all the facts together quite nicely. I had just started my quest to find the origins of all this, and you did alot of the work for me.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Saturnia could have been assimilated into Roman culture from the Etruscans which could have been assimilated in to their culture from the Greeks which could have been assimilated in to their culture from the Babylonians.In fact, that's actually a likely scenario. Aside from which all Christian holidays are bastardized versions of pagan holidays, Easter probably being the most explicit with its Easter (Ishtar) eggs being symbolic of fertility.Some could even say that Christmas has been re-hijacked from the Christians by pagan influences such as Santa Claus which has Hellenic, Norse and Germanic influences with the occasional smatterings of early Christian beliefs.It doesn't really matter to me either way. I don't see why you find it so objectionable. As Modulous postulates, it doesn't really matter what the significance is as long as it has meaning to the individual. He chooses that day as a celebration for his friends and family, and apparently not a day he reserves to smear religions.That might not be such a bad idea for yourself, Mr. Grinch.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

The Gnostic views allege that Jesus essentially martyred himself by intentionally being hostile to the Jewish leaders so that they would kill him. As the Gospel of Judas narrative explains, Judas was not a betrayer but a facilitator in helping Jesus achieve his aims. This was a secret pact between Judas and Jesus.I obviously cannot know which version of the story is true, but that is another theory.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

I don't find the holiday objectionable. The only problem I have with it is christianity's attempt at making it all about them. How many stories have you heard about secular groups trying to put up holiday decorations, only to have christians fight them tooth and nail? Christians make christmas ALL about jesus. I am far from a grinch. I love christmas time!

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Here is how I view it. There are a lot of good things that could be said about the gospels that is hard to find fault with. Others, not so much. I don't particularly believe that Jesus was a unique figure, although he is regularly credited with radical teachings.For instance, the law of reciprocity which he alleged to have taught is a concept far older than Jesus. Hillel, for instance, who was an Elder of Jesus, taught it.I see wisdom in much of it though, and while it is easy to look at some of the supposed followers of Jesus in disgust, I don't judge Jesus on the basis of his followers. But why so fervent about a non-belief? Granted, I know for some people who previously believed wholeheartedly felt lied to and let down that some of their deepest convictions were based on lies. That does take a psychological toll, however, try and put things in perspective. Every one is trying to navigate through life and all of us search for answers. Jesus was likely no different.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

I don't think many Christians make it all about themselves so much as that is the day they observe Christ's birth? It's merely a tradition handed down generation to generation.As has been agreed by everyone on the thread, it is a mishmash of religions and beliefs. I don't know of a single Christian scholar who argues that Easter is the exact day of Jesus' ascension or that Christmas is the exact day of his birth. And as Buz stated, this conflation historically points to Constantine being the primary instigator for Christianizing pagan holidays.If Christians in large numbers were saying that non-Christians could not participate in the festivities or that we have believe in their beliefs if we did participate, I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. But since they aren't, I don't mind nativity scenes or celebrations about Jesus' birth.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

the unfortunate thing about christmas, is that Jesus requested his diciples to celebrate his death, not his birth.I think this is significant when you consider that the bible writers make no mention of the date of his birth. If his birth was so important, then why not mention it? This is evidence of the church's failure to relay the new testament message accurately. They have simply adopted false religous ideas and corrupted true christianity. But that's no surprise...Jesus said it would happen.

Hi, Hooah Right. You've hijacked a Christian holiday for your own purposes. Then, while hijacking that holiday for your purposes, you criticize Christians because they had previously hijacked it from somebody else for their purposes.So, is it bad to hijack holidays? Do Christians have to live up to standards that you don't hold yourself to? Or, did you think Christians hold Christmas in the same regard as they hold the Bible?

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

The bible doesn't mention the date of his death either, so if we were to extrapolate your sentence then does it make his death and resurrection unimportant?

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

1. As a matter of fact it has become pretty much all about Christianity since paganism and athiesm has played a minority role in Western cultures.2. In a republic, the majority of the people elect leaders who establish laws, etc. So long as the elected leadership follows the mandates of their constituency regarding Christmas symbols on public property, what dissenters need to do is muster up a majority so as to elect leadership who become mandated to rescind the status quo. Thus, in Jefferson's day, the Bible and Watts Hymnal were standard texts in all schools and church services were held in the halls of Congress, the music being accompanied by the US Marine Band. Now that the electorate does not have that mandate from the majority, it is no longer the practice.3. If Athiests (ABE: or pagans) wish to display some symbol, let them buzz off from harassment of Christianity and let them do their own thing in their own place until they have achieved the mandate at the polls for predominance in the public arena. Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted in context and update Message Title.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi Peg. This is so true. At the Last Supper, Jesus broke the bread and shared the wine, symbolizing his body which was to be broken and his vicarious blood which was to be shed for the sins of the world.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Please, could you tell me some of those stories? I don't think I'm understanding your argument correctly. I have heard plenty of reports about Christians wanting to put up things like creches and pietas on public property and being prevented. And I think I have heard of Jews and Muslims getting similar troubles in Hanukkah and Ramadan. But somehow I've missed the persecution of secularity. What would that constitute, anyway? No gifts or something?I've seen plenty of evergreen trees and old men in sleds with reindeer, both pagan symbols, in the public square. And also an assortment of yule logs, stars, and snow men. Which interesting public beatdowns am I missing?

Good point, Iblis.
Jeremiah, the OT prophet condemned the Pagan practice of cutting trees and decorating them in the homes.Jeremiah 10:2-4: (KJV) All Pagans who want to be represented in the public arena need do is to leave off whining and proclaim the true origin of the decorated tree and the date, Dec 25, as theirs. Perhaps this would enlighten Christian sheeple that what they are practicing actually has pagan connotations.As for the athiests, well, they can simply leave off protesting in the cold, enjoy the vacation, profit from the sales, visit the folks, eat, drink and be merry. Edited by Buzsaw, : delete word

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

of course it does.his death took place in the spring on the Passover according to the Jewish calendar, it was Nisan 14 (also known as the month of Abib) in the year 33 CE.The bible also says that John the Baptist began his ministry at 30yrs of age in the 15th year of Tiberius Ceasar. 6 mths later also at the age of 30yrs, Jesus began his ministry. Luke 3:1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Ti‧be′ri‧us Caesar...God’s declaration came to John the son of Zech‧a‧ri′ah in the wilderness. 3So he came into all the country around the Jordan, preaching baptism [in symbol] of repentance for forgiveness of sins