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Author Topic:   Heaven: How to Get In
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 31 of 91 (522879)
09-06-2009 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by truthlover
09-05-2009 11:50 PM


Re: Getting into Heaven the Bible Way
Thanks for that brutha truthlover ...
In the name of brother Joshua the Anointed One, peace be with you.

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by truthlover, posted 09-05-2009 11:50 PM truthlover has not replied

  
tuffers
Member (Idle past 5276 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 32 of 91 (522919)
09-06-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns
09-03-2009 11:10 AM


Hi T&U
Having read the first 3 pages of replies to your question on how to get into an afterlife heaven, would I be right in assuming, like me, you are absolutely none the wiser?
My view is that we are all so incredibly lucky to be born at all, especially into this time of astonishing wealth & health, that to fret about being born again and going to some better place is an absolute insult to our ancestors who lead unimaginably harsh lives to give us what we have. We are already in heaven, or at least can be once we realise what we have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-03-2009 11:10 AM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-06-2009 3:20 PM tuffers has not replied
 Message 35 by Bailey, posted 09-06-2009 7:11 PM tuffers has not replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 33 of 91 (522931)
09-06-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by tuffers
09-06-2009 11:10 AM


tuffers writes:
Having read the first 3 pages of replies to your question on how to get into an afterlife heaven, would I be right in assuming, like me, you are absolutely none the wiser?
My view is that we are all so incredibly lucky to be born at all, especially into this time of astonishing wealth & health, that to fret about being born again and going to some better place is an absolute insult to our ancestors who lead unimaginably harsh lives to give us what we have. We are already in heaven, or at least can be once we realise what we have.
Hi tuffers, and yes, I haven't learned much. However, I would like to thank some people who have, actually given a definitive answer. Like Oni said earlier in the thread, this shouldn't just be about the Christian faith. So bring on your criteria!
And tuffers, that is personally what I believe, as I think that the very fact of us being here is a miracle and thus shouldn't be wasted. So I guess that's how you get into athiest heaven- get born.

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen Roberts
I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in
- Dan Foutes
"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by tuffers, posted 09-06-2009 11:10 AM tuffers has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 91 (522934)
09-06-2009 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by truthlover
09-05-2009 11:50 PM


Re: Getting into Heaven the Bible Way
Truthlover writes:
It's not popular in Christian circles to say so nowadays, but ...
According to the Bible you go to heaven by doing good works.
It's certainly not popular in Christian circles and here isn't the place to go into why not. But it's interesting to take the opportunity provided by Truthlover to point out that works-based salvation is the basis for salvation in every major Religion and sect - bar for Christianities salvation by faith alone.
Call it Christianities Unique Selling Point

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by truthlover, posted 09-05-2009 11:50 PM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Bailey, posted 09-06-2009 9:20 PM iano has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 35 of 91 (522947)
09-06-2009 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by tuffers
09-06-2009 11:10 AM


tuff's luck ...
Thanks for the exchange brutha (or sista?) tuff.
Hope things are well for you today ...
Heads up - I wound up posting a lot more scripture text within this post than originally intended. However ...
You can rest assured, it was not done to convince anyone into accepting Joshua as a levitical animal sacrifice.
Having read the first 3 pages of replies to your question on how to get into an afterlife heaven, would I be right in assuming, like me, you are absolutely none the wiser?
Had I placed any faith in the priestcraft, over and beyond the witness of the Prophets and chosen to nullify their unique - although consistent, testimonies while rejecting the faith within my conscience that I've recieved from the Father, I'd - most likely, be inclined to quickly agree. Thankfully, I have no faith in those who contradict Joshua - as well as the radical school of Prophets as a whole, around every bend as they entertain special pleading along their broad straight aways. I guess I'm One with those who perceive Joshua as quite easy to understand, while finding it more difficult to live up to his admonitions.
Here's a few excerpts attributed to Joshua, before he's ruthlessly murdered to the delight of so many, in regards to what he testified as requirements ...
quote:
Matisyahu 19:16
Now someone came up to him and said,
Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?
17 ~ Joshua said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good.
But if you want to enter into life
, keep the commandments
.
18 ~ Which ones? he asked. Joshua replied,
Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
19 ~ honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.
...
20 ~ Joshua said to him,
If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give {the money} to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me
.
quote:
Mark 10:17
Now as Joshua was starting out on his way, someone ran up to him, fell on his knees, and said,
Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
18 ~ Joshua said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
19 ~ You know the commandments:
Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother
.’
...
21 ~ As Joshua looked at him, he felt love for him and said, You lack one thing.
Go, sell whatever you have and give {the money} to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me
.
quote:
Luke 18:18
Now a certain ruler asked him,
Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
19 ~ Joshua said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
20 ~ You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’
21 ~ The man replied, I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws since my youth.
22 ~ When Joshua heard this, he said to him, One thing you still lack.
Sell all that you have and give {the money} to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me
.
As often as brother Joshua spoke in parables and hyperbole, I'm not seeing where the 'confusion' is in his speech here. Perhaps a christian can point it out. Also, if you were involved in priestcraft and making a livin' off of other people's sin and wealth, wouldn't you want to change his rules a bit too? Anyway ... as far as any clear presentations go, I thought brutha truthlover was fairly concise in Message 29; where does the Anointed One make any claim of ease?
Here's a few excerpts attributed to Joshua, still before he's ruthlessly murdered to the delight of so many, in regards to the diffuculty one may encounter ...
quote:
Matisyahu 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction,
And there are many who enter through it
.
14 ~ But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
...
21 ~ Not everyone who says to me,
Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven — only the One who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 ~ On that day, many will say to me,
Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’
23 ~ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
24 ~ Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 ~ The rain fell, the rivers came, and the winds beat against that house, but it did not collapse because it had been founded on rock.
26 ~ Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 ~ The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, and it collapsed; and great was its fall!
Matisyahu 19:23
Then Joshua said to his disciples,
Truly I say to you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven!
24 ~ Again I say to you,
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of God
.
25 ~ The disciples were greatly astonished when they heard this and said, Then who can be saved?
26 ~ Joshua looked at them and replied, This is impossible for mere humanity, but for God all things are possible.
27 ~ Then Peter said to him, Look, we have left everything and followed you! What then will there be for us?
28 ~ Joshua said to them, Truly I say to you:
In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne,
You who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, justly discerning the twelve tribes of Yisrael
.
29 ~ And whoever has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake
Will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life
.
30 ~ But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
quote:
Mark 10:24
{Then} Joshua looked around and said to his disciples,
How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
24 ~ The disciples were astonished at these words. But answering, Joshua again said to them,
Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God!
25 ~ It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.
26 ~ But they were even more astonished, saying, Then who can be saved?
27 ~ Joshua looked at them and replied,
This is impossible for mere humanity, but not for God; all things are possible for God.
28 ~ Peter began to speak to him, Look, we have left everything and followed you!
29 ~ Joshua said, Truly I say to you,
There is no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for my sake
And
for the sake of the good news
30 ~ who will not receive in this time a hundred times as much —
homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fields, although with persecutions
but in the age to come, eternal life
.
31 ~ And many who are first will be last, and the last first.
quote:
Luke 6:46
Why do you call meLord, Lord,’ and don’t do what I tell you?
47 ~ Everyone who comes to me and listens to my words and does them — I will show you what he is like:
48 ~ He is like the One building a house, who dug and dug down deep, and laid the foundation on bedrock.
When a flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it, because this One had built on rock
.
48 ~ But the person who hears and does not do is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation,
Against which the river burst against it - it collapsed immediately, and its crash was great
!
Luke 13:24
Make a struggle and strive to exert every effort towards entering through the narrow door,
Because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to
.
25 ~ Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him,
Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’
26 ~ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 ~ But he will say, saying to you, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you workers of iniquity!’
28 ~ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,
And ALL the Prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out
.
29 ~ Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their place reclining at the banquet table in the kingdom of God.
30 ~ But behold - some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.
Luke 18:24
When Joshua saw him becoming sad, he said,
How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God
!
25 ~ In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.
26 ~ Those who heard this said, Then who can be saved?
27 ~ He replied, What is impossible for mere humanity is possible for God.
28 ~ And Peter said, Look, we have left our own things and followed you!
29 ~ Then he said to them,
Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left home or wife or siblings or parents or children for the sake of God’s kingdom
29 ~ who will not receive many times more in this time — and in the age to come, eternal life.
Perhaps you can see why those indoctrinated within various schools of thought, yet refusing to repent, are made very uncomfortable by Joshua's advice. Nonetheless, there are always going to be a few who choose not to listen to second hand advice - instead, going to the source and striving towards their goal. Not to keep up the bombardment of scripture texts, but I'm referring to people that may experience striking similarities to Zacchaeus, for example.
There are bound to be a few ...
quote:
Luke 19:2
Now a man named Zacchaeus was there; he was a chief tax collector and was rich.
3 ~ He was trying to get a look and see who Joshua was, but he could not see over the crowd, for he was short in stature.
4 ~ So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, because that One was going to pass that way.
5 ~ And when Joshua came to that place, he looked up and said to him, Zacchaeus, come down quickly, because I must stay at your house today.
6 ~ So, hastening, he came down and welcomed him with joy.
7 ~ And when the people saw it, they all complained, He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.
8 ~ But Zacchaeus stopped and said to Joshua,
Look, Master, half of my possessions I am now giving to the poor, and to those I have cheated of anything, I am paying back four times as much!
9 ~ Then Joshua said to him, Today salvation has come to this household, because he too is a son of Abraham!
10 ~ For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.
Religious folk (ie. levitical christian sects, etc.) seem to always be contesting - scratchin' tooth and nail, in a feeble attempt to circumvent Joshua's policies. Perhaps the rest of us simply behave that way in stride or, as you have mentioned, out of the confusion established by the constant ambiguity employed.
I suppose I've built an ark, of sorts, myself ...
quote:
Matisyahu 24:37
For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
quote:
Luke 17:26
Just as it happened in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man.
lol - it seems to float rather nicely in the turbulent waters of christian confusion; although I've used only the lumber found within the witness of the Prophets and the pleasantly unambiguous words attributed to the Anointed One. I make every attempt to consistently chink it from within with faith, hope and love ...
My view is that we are all so incredibly lucky to be born at all, especially into this time of astonishing wealth & health, that to fret about being born again and going to some better place is an absolute insult to our ancestors who lead unimaginably harsh lives to give us what we have. We are already in heaven, or at least can be once we realise what we have.
Ahhh - what a breath of fresh air ... if you will, pay special attention to the passage found below drawn from the good news according to Luke.
quote:
Matisyahu 18:12
He called a child, had him stand among them,
3 ~ and said, Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!
quote:
Mark 10:13
Now people were bringing little children to Joshua for him to adhere to, but the disciples were chiding.
14 ~ But when Joshua saw this, he was indignant and said to them,
Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
15 ~ Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.
quote:
Luke 17:20
Now at one point, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, Joshua answered,
The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed,
21 ~ nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’
For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst
.
I become less amazed, each day it seems, that so many who have not recognized dogma as good news are walking in such a spirit as yours brutha tuff.
At this point, it appears worth noting that while the author(s) of Mark (also Matisyahu 19:29; Luke 10:25, 18:30) perhaps seem(s) to portray 'eternal life' as something one receives primarily in 'the age to come', the good news according to the author of John, on the other hand, continually emphasizes the possibility of receiving 'eternal life' in the present (as Luke 17:21). Heads up - although linked to the original text(s), the verse below has been paraphrased ...
quote:
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the One who {hears, obeys & commits to} {my Father's words} and believes the One who sent me has eternal life -
This One does not come into judgment, but has crossed over from death to life
.
In the end, we are certainly, imho, indebted to some of our ancestors and while admiring your whole paragraph, that last bit is really hitting home.
Thanks tuff. In the spirit of the Anointing, peace to you ...
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : grammar
Edited by Bailey, : pnct.
Edited by Bailey, : sp.

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by tuffers, posted 09-06-2009 11:10 AM tuffers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by iano, posted 09-07-2009 6:25 AM Bailey has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 36 of 91 (522952)
09-06-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
09-06-2009 5:04 PM


Re: Getting into Heaven the Bible Way
Thanks for the exchange brutha iano ...
Hope things are well with you & yours.
Brutha iano, one liners and meek coincidence are not likely to alter reality. But, please, don't get me wrong - I do love you.
brutha iano writes:
brutha truthlover writes:
It's not popular in Christian circles to say so nowadays, but ...
According to the Bible you go to heaven by doing good works.
It's certainly not popular in Christian circles and here isn't the place to go into why not. But it's interesting to take the opportunity provided by Truthlover to point out that works-based salvation is the basis for salvation in every major Religion and sect ...
Of couse there are plenty of indigenous 'religions', as well as, universalist belief systems that render this statement completely false, yet nonetheless ...
You'd think that'd be a hint to those within it's adherence, but nahh - you can't easily reason with those who've already been convinced they know it all.
quote:
Matisyahu 7:21
Not everyone who says to me,
Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven — only the One who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 ~ On that day, many will say to me,
Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’
23 ~ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
quote:
Luke 13:24
Make a struggle and strive to exert every effort towards entering through the narrow door,
Because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to
.
25 ~ Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him,
Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’
26 ~ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 ~ But he will say, saying to you, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you workers of iniquity!’
28 ~ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,
And ALL the Prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out
.
I find it pleasantly interesting that all the Prophets are mentioned specifically in the passage directly above, but notta priest at all ...
Mind you, the ones prophesied about above - who are banished from the light, are under the impression that they were serving brother Joshua.
Also, although we are admonished that the 'way is narrow', sola fide is one of the broadest paths in existence - and established through politics.
So then, money, money, money, money, money. The situation we face is one where people believe they know their bibles - after all we can quote verses at the drop of a hat as if that were somehow evidence. That is not the same as understanding one's own bible and without understanding, there is not knowledge. Without understanding and knowledge there can not be evaluation. Let's be absolutely clear: everyone interprets scripture.
And so, every stance taken on scripture is an interpretation. There is no value-free understanding of scripture.
We don’t need to go over the contentious passages located within various scripture texts. They are well known and well rehearsed. What is perhaps much less well known is any concise understanding of what these passages were trying to convey to their original audiences. To understand the religious background of those times is to discover that they do not offer a blanket condemnation of salvation resulting from a balance of mitzvah.
... bar for Christianities salvation by faith alone.
Which indeed requires nullifing huge portions of canonical scripture texts - with the admonitions attributed to brother Joshua being no exception.
Of course, what remains must be buried under the extreme weight of polemical argumentation. It appears sola fide is most effective at proselytizing when ...
* promoted through a prison ministry
* your dealing with primarily illiterates
* there is no personal access to a bible
* the adherents have the bible read to them
* you can slaughter all the people who disagree
* you pay those who can't be slaughtered to hush
Here's a question for you: how long do you think the United States would have lasted if the founding fathers hadn't, through a certain foresight, established and implemented a Supreme Court, which maintains the final word in the interpretation of the Law of their Land? Answer: that country would have been split into factions right from the very beginning.
So then, it is little surprise that this is exactly what happened to sola fide's daddy, Protestantism. Luther separated from the commanding Roman Levites in 1521 and immediately there were squabbles between him and Hiccup Zwingli - his fellow reformer from Switzerland, as well as with Thomas Munzer. As a matter of fact, Munzer broke away that very same year and formed the Anabaptists. Calvin & Hobbes then separated in 1536 and formed a polished turd of his very own, which he humbly entitled Calvinism. Following suit soon thereatfer, Johnny Knoxville parted company and formed the Presbyterians 'roundabout 1560. Accordion{ingly} John Smyth hustled together the Baptists in 1609, and John and Charles Wesley started Methodism in 1739.
This could keep on going and going and going like the energizer bunny, seeing as there are now over 33,800 differing levitical denominations, none of which can claim any substantial authority over one another regarding the interpretation of the the Father's ToRaH - or teaching ... or law, if you so prefer. From the moment the Universal Church of God crapped out Protestantism, they both lost the 'Supreme Court' of bible interpretation, which the popes had been losing fine on their own for all those years since Constantine bought and paid for his favorite book.
Call it Christianities Unique Selling Point
There is an overwhelming sense that the adherence to a human animal sacrifice would quicker fit that bill ...
In the name of brother Joshua the Anointed One, peace be with you.
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : grammar
Edited by Bailey, : grammar
Edited by Bailey, : pnct.
Edited by Bailey, : pnct.

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 09-06-2009 5:04 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by iano, posted 09-07-2009 5:35 AM Bailey has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 37 of 91 (522967)
09-07-2009 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Bailey
09-06-2009 9:20 PM


Re: Getting into Heaven the Bible Way
iano writes:
It's certainly not popular in Christian circles and here isn't the place to go into why not. But it's interesting to take the opportunity provided by Truthlover to point out that works-based salvation is the basis for salvation in every major Religion and sect ...
Bailey writes:
Of couse there are plenty of indigenous 'religions', as well as, universalist belief systems that render this statement completely false...
Such as?
Bailey writes:
Not everyone who says to me,
‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven — only the One who does the will of my Father in heaven.
The first point to make centres around your canon vs. a Christians canon. You have writings of certain people which I assume are taken by you to reflect the words of Jesus. In order to give them the weight you do, I'd go further in assuming that you consider them in some way heaven sent (ie: very accurately reflecting the words of Jesus). Fair enough?
Now I do the same with the writings of other people - including eg: Paul. So far so equitable.
The question now is whether or not the balls can be juggled and in the case of Jesus words harmonising with Pauls words there isn't an enormous problem. Certainly so, if reading Jesus words through the equally important lens of Pauls words. If you can't juggle the two then of course it's an either/or - in which case folk are likely to err on the side of Jesus (or in the case of one stripped-down-canonist I know, to only those bits of the gospels which didn't interfere with his reincarnation doctrine)
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Bailey, posted 09-06-2009 9:20 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Bailey, posted 09-08-2009 11:06 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 38 of 91 (522968)
09-07-2009 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Bailey
09-06-2009 7:11 PM


Asking the impossible..
Bailey writes:
Now a certain ruler asked him,Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?19 ~ Joshua said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.20 ~ You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’21 ~ The man replied, I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws since my youth.22 ~ When Joshua heard this, he said to him, One thing you still lack.Sell all that you have and give {the money} to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.Then come, follow me.
Question for you. Given Jesus' definition of what constitutes murder, do you think this rich young ruler was accurate in his self-assessment in this regard? And if not, why do you think Jesus suggested there was only one thing he lacked - with breaking the law on murder not being it?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Bailey, posted 09-06-2009 7:11 PM Bailey has not replied

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Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 39 of 91 (523005)
09-07-2009 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by iano
09-07-2009 6:25 AM


A New Situation
Alright everyone, let's assume a new situation. We all know that mentally deficient people exist, and their condition is a result of brain damage or malformation. In extreme cases, such a person can have multiple or exaggerated personalities or near or total amnesia- i.e. lack of the ability to retain information. There also people who are brain dead from birth, childhood, or as the result of an accident. As such, it would be impossible for them to learn of the Christian faith, pray/worship, "choose" to keep the commandments, or even help others; being entirely dependent on or not even aware of others. Now, would such a person have a soul and would they be able to get into heaven? Why?
If a person's soul is linked to their actions, personality, and ability to get into heaven, then why is it that if the physical brain is damaged, all of the above are affected (except possibly the last one depending on your point of view)?

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Holyfire23
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 91 (523010)
09-07-2009 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns
09-03-2009 11:10 AM


Believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-03-2009 11:10 AM Teapots&unicorns has replied

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Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 41 of 91 (523021)
09-07-2009 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Holyfire23
09-07-2009 4:29 PM


Believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins.
What if you are incapable of believing- or remembering such?

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 42 of 91 (523030)
09-07-2009 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Teapots&unicorns
09-07-2009 3:38 PM


Re: A New Situation
Hi Teapot,
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Alright everyone, let's assume a new situation. We all know that mentally deficient people exist, and their condition is a result of brain damage or malformation. In extreme cases, such a person can have multiple or exaggerated personalities or near or total amnesia- i.e. lack of the ability to retain information. There also people who are brain dead from birth, childhood, or as the result of an accident. As such, it would be impossible for them to learn of the Christian faith, pray/worship, "choose" to keep the commandments, or even help others; being entirely dependent on or not even aware of others. Now, would such a person have a soul and would they be able to get into heaven? Why?
Everyone has a spirit as mankind was created in the image of God. Body, Mind and Spirit.
Until a person reaches the mental capacity that the man in the garden did when he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and can make a choice of accepting the offer of a free full pardon they will go to heaven.
When a person is capable of making the choice of accepting the offer of a free full pardon offered by God they are condemned and responsible for themselves.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 43 of 91 (523043)
09-08-2009 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ICANT
09-07-2009 7:36 PM


Re: A New Situation
ICANT writes:
When a person is capable of making the choice of accepting the offer of a free full pardon offered by God they are condemned and responsible for themselves.
*woops, read that question wrong*
I thought you were saying that:
if a person is mentally incapable of learning and coming to a knowledge of God, he basically abandons them and leaves them without any hope?
I must remind you that Jesus said that he came to save the 'ailing' and those needing a physician. while these words have a spiritual application, surely they must have a physical application also?
If God has no means of saving those who are incapable of saving themselves, then the sacrifice of Jesus is meaningless and not achieving the expressed purposed it was intended for.
Edited by Peg, : my mistake

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 91 (523044)
09-08-2009 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Peg
09-08-2009 3:06 AM


Re: A New Situation
double post
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 45 of 91 (523045)
09-08-2009 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Teapots&unicorns
09-07-2009 3:38 PM


Re: A New Situation
Teapots writes:
As such, it would be impossible for them to learn of the Christian faith, pray/worship, "choose" to keep the commandments, or even help others; being entirely dependent on or not even aware of others. Now, would such a person have a soul and would they be able to get into heaven? Why?
this is a good question because it highlights the flaw in the belief that only those of faith 'go to heaven' (ps, i dont believe everyone is going to heaven) or more accurately 'get saved'
There must be a salvation for ALL humans both good and bad for the scriptures indicate as such
________________________________________________________________
1John 4:14 In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world
1John 2:2And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s
___________________________________________________________________
Notice in 1John 2:2 he says "not only for OUR sins" but also for "whole worlds"
John is clearly making a distinction between Jesus followers & the world, the world being the 'world of mankind' and the 'OUR' meaning the disciples or followers of Christ.
there is further evidence that even people who never did good works or had faith in God will be saved...Acts 24:15 says There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
Gods servants of the past have always believed in the resurrection. Hebrews 11:17-19 says about Abraham He reckoned that God was able to raise him [his son Isaac] up even from the dead.
And Job said: If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? You will call, and I myself shall answer you. Thus he showed that he believed in the resurrection. (Job 14:14,15)
So this is why i say i dont believe we are all going to heaven. Obviously, with the bible talking so much about a resurrection, some people will be given life right here on earth, not in heaven. Resurrection means raising up or standing up. and in the Christian Greek Scriptures is mostly used with reference to the dead.
Unfortunately, the churchs talk so much about going to heaven that this wonderful truth about the resurrection is practically non existent in Christendom. Its a shame because the truth is that everyone who has ever died will be coming back to live right here on earth.... a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous....salvation for all mankind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-07-2009 3:38 PM Teapots&unicorns has not replied

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