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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 436 of 657 (604336)
02-11-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Buzsaw
02-11-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Buz, we can tell that you are not on the side of truth by your constant attempts to deceive.
quote:
This, from scientist Lennart Moller is from his book, THE EXODUS CASE is all I can show at this point. Again, I have shown the credibility data of this renowned scientist author as to his credentials. He is not regarded in the scientific academic arena as a fraud or crackpot, unlike how he appears to be regarded here at EvC by skeptics.
i.e. he has valid credentials UNRELATED to Egyptology or archaeology and his work UNRELATED to those fields - in areas where he does have valid credentials is not regarded as crackpot. This does not change the fact that The Exodus Case contains crackpot Egyptology with Moses identified as two different people - both of them along with much more craziness, all of which has been discussed here. Work so obviously crackpot that you don't dare to defend it.
Here's is what one archaeologist has to say of the book:
The Exodus Case is such an extreme example of pseudo-science that any reasonably well-informed reader will wonder if Mller is joking...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 10:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 437 of 657 (604338)
02-11-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Buzsaw
02-11-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Buzsaw writes:
It is supportive corroborating evidence to the account. That's it, just as Robert Ballard's evidence of salt water vs fresh water was corroborative evidence of his hypothesis relative to the yet to be analyzed logs at the bottom of the Black Sea. Nothing relating to either amount to much standing alone.
It would be helpful if you could adjust your terminology a bit. Evidence is only corroborative when it strengthens or buttresses other evidence:
Corroborating Evidence
Evidence complementary to evidence already given and tending to strengthen or confirm it; additional evidence of a different character on the same point.
Your evidence doesn't really do that, and your claims that it does is causing the other participants in this thread to spend a lot of bandwidth pointing this out. The evidence you do have is better termed circumstantial evidence:
circumstantial evidence
n.
Evidence not bearing directly on the fact in dispute but on various attendant circumstances from which the judge or jury might infer the occurrence of the fact in dispute.
Circumstantial evidence used by prosecutors arguing before juries who think like you has caused the return of guilty verdicts that later DNA testing overturns. Circumstantial cases are easy to build, but they're like a house of cards because they collapse with the first piece of hard evidence.
Let me clarify by example. After a knife murder, finding a knife of the right size in the home of the suspect would be considered circumstantial evidence. Finding blood on the knife that matched the victim would be corroborating evidence.
Coincidentally, Ingmar Guandique is being sentenced in Washington D.C. today for the murder of Chandra Levy, a former federal intern. He was convicted on the basis of this evidence:
  • There was no forensic evidence.
  • Records from his home country of El Salvador showed a violent history involving women.
  • Guandique had preyed on women in the same park where Levy's remains were found.
  • A fellow convict testified that Guandique had admitted murdering Levy.
Because this is all circumstantial evidence, the first piece of hard evidence that turns up could easily overturn the conviction.
Using your chariot wheel evidence as an example for applying these same criteria, finding circular coral on the floor of the Gulf of Aqaba is circumstantial evidence. Dating the remains of whatever the coral is attached to to the 18th dynasty of Egypt would be good corroborating evidence. Obtaining expert opinion that the object is an actual chariot wheel from the 18th dynasty would be excellent corroborating evidence.
Please, no replies to this message.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.
Edited by Admin, : Improve wording.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 10:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 1:45 PM Admin has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 438 of 657 (604358)
02-11-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Admin
02-11-2011 12:02 PM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Admin, I don't believe circumstantial evidence would be corroborated by multiple evidences as I have shown to be the case here. Nor would it involve photo-graphical research to the extent that scientist Moller has done.
I don't buy your argument, any more than the renowned credentialed scientist researcher would. There are many intelligent people who would not agree to your position. Some would and some would not.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Admin, posted 02-11-2011 12:02 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by Admin, posted 02-11-2011 4:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 440 by NoNukes, posted 02-12-2011 12:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 439 of 657 (604383)
02-11-2011 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Buzsaw
02-11-2011 1:45 PM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Hi Buz,
I did request that there be no replies to my message. I'm not here to discuss this with you. I do understand that you disagree with my position. Whether you decide to follow my requests to at least some reasonable degree is your decision.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 1:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 440 of 657 (604433)
02-12-2011 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by Buzsaw
02-11-2011 1:45 PM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Evidence terms are being bandied about here in a non-standard way. In particular circumstantial evidence is getting a bad rap.
Circumstantial evidence means evidence that requires a logical inference to reach a conclusion. The opposite of circumstantial evidence is direct evidence which requires no inference. Among the few things that constitute direct evidence are eye witness accounts and confessions.
DNA evidence is circumstantial evidence.
Circumstantial evidence is generally more reliable than most direct evidence, because humans are imperfect, and direct evidence usually involves subjective human impressions. The only kind of evidence anyone should expect to see in this thread is circumstantial evidence. Moses, Pharoah, and their peers are long gone and they did not have video recorders.
Evidence should consists of things that if factual make it more likely that the Exodus happened. A good story describing something that might explain a lack of evidence is not evidence.

This message is a reply to:
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Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 4771 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 441 of 657 (607274)
03-02-2011 10:00 PM


After a 5 month discussion which seems to have taken me an hour to read I have concluded:
Although there is no direct evidence to support it, no writings exist outside the bible which support it we did find a rock and "ancient drawing" which can possibly used to make an argument that it did in fact happen. Therefore it must have happened.
Hopefully we can talk about something more important like:
When god turned that lady into salt what kind of salt was it? Just regular salt, sea salt or Epsom salts?

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 442 of 657 (607275)
03-02-2011 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Purpledbear
03-02-2011 10:00 PM


When god turned that lady into salt what kind of salt was it? Just regular salt, sea salt or Epsom salts?
Taken with a grain of salt?
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 443 of 657 (607399)
03-03-2011 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Purpledbear
03-02-2011 10:00 PM


Obviously kosher salt
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 444 of 657 (607635)
03-05-2011 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Buzsaw
02-09-2011 8:42 AM


Re: Wheel Forms
So, you have some round coral clusters..that you are projecting as being 'wheels'. What you can not show is those mounds that are round are actually wheels..
You need something more than 'Oh gosh, that looks like a chariot wheel, therefore the exodus happened and god exists'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2011 8:42 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 445 of 657 (607642)
03-05-2011 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by ramoss
03-05-2011 1:14 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
ramoss writes:
So, you have some round coral clusters..that you are projecting as being 'wheels'. What you can not show is those mounds that are round are actually wheels..
You need something more than 'Oh gosh, that looks like a chariot wheel, therefore the exodus happened and god exists'.
You're resorting to (as others have attempted) to divide and conquer, discounting the aggregate line-up of supportive evidence. I suggest that you read or reread about that in the thread, before arriving at an objective conclusion.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by ramoss, posted 03-05-2011 1:14 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 447 by Admin, posted 03-05-2011 4:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 446 of 657 (607644)
03-05-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Buzsaw
03-05-2011 3:55 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
Buzsaw writes:
ramoss writes:
So, you have some round coral clusters..that you are projecting as being 'wheels'. What you can not show is those mounds that are round are actually wheels..
You need something more than 'Oh gosh, that looks like a chariot wheel, therefore the exodus happened and god exists'.
You're resorting to (as others have attempted) to divide and conquer, discounting the aggregate line-up of supportive evidence. I suggest that you read or reread about that in the thread, before arriving at an objective conclusion.
What supportive evidence, your long list of unsupported assertions?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 447 of 657 (607648)
03-05-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Buzsaw
03-05-2011 3:55 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
Buzsaw writes:
You're resorting to (as others have attempted) to divide and conquer, discounting the aggregate line-up of supportive evidence. I suggest that you read or reread about that in the thread, before arriving at an objective conclusion.
I need to remind you that throughout this thread the other participants have been complaining that you have presented no evidence, and that you have been responding that you have. In response to this back-and-forth so that discussion can return to the thread's topic I asked that you collect your evidence together. In my Message 366 I asked that you provide this evidence:
  • Photographs of the chariot wheels.
  • Videos of the chariot wheels (links are okay).
  • Current location (museum, laboratory, etc.) of any chariot wheels recovered from the sea floor.
  • Expert's names and analyses indicating that they're chariot wheels and not something else, such as natural formations, coral-encrusted pleasure boat steering wheels, etc.
  • If expert analyses indicate these are ancient chariot wheels, then provide expert's names and analyses indicating the chariot wheels are from the appropriate period and region.
And in my Message 427 I asked that you provide this evidence:
  • Just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the alter?
  • Again, just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the golden calf?
  • What is the evidence tying the petroglyphs to the ancient Hebrews of the Exodus?
  • What is the evidence that the mountain is guarded?
  • Assuming that the rationale for the Saudis guarding the mountain is that they know something profoundly important about it that the rest of the world doesn't know and that they don't want the rest of the world to know, what is the evidence that the Saudis believe it is the site of the fleeing Israelite's Mt. Sinai camp?
Thank you.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by hERICtic, posted 03-05-2011 6:02 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 448 of 657 (607658)
03-05-2011 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Admin
03-05-2011 4:11 PM


Where are the bodies?
I have read this thread since the beginning, but perhaps I missed this crucial point.
The numbers of Israelites must have been close to at least three million; men, women and children.
If the average lifespan was around 40 years and they wandered the desert for 40 years...then nearly everyone who started the journey would have died in the desert.
Since the enviroment is ideal for preservation...I would assume if the exodus occured there should be plenty of remains to be found.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Admin, posted 03-05-2011 4:11 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 449 of 657 (607660)
03-05-2011 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by hERICtic
03-05-2011 6:02 PM


Re: Where are the bodies?
hERICtic writes:
I have read this thread since the beginning, but perhaps I missed this crucial point.
The numbers of Israelites must have been close to at least three million; men, women and children.
If the average lifespan was around 40 years and they wandered the desert for 40 years...then nearly everyone who started the journey would have died in the desert.
Since the enviroment is ideal for preservation...I would assume if the exodus occured there should be plenty of remains to be found.
According to the record, due to their unbelief and murmuring, only the young survived to go into the promised land, the rest all dying in the wilderness and particularly, Kadesh Barnea. Moses, in fact, climbed the mountain on which he expired and died, a healthy man, at the age of 120. Many were likely aged but healthy when they exited Egypt. They would have died off in the wilderness or at Kadesh.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by hERICtic, posted 03-05-2011 6:02 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2011 2:12 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 469 by ZenMonkey, posted 04-09-2011 2:06 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 450 of 657 (607661)
03-05-2011 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Admin
03-05-2011 4:11 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
Admin writes:
Buzsaw writes:
You're resorting to (as others have attempted) to divide and conquer, discounting the aggregate line-up of supportive evidence. I suggest that you read or reread about that in the thread, before arriving at an objective conclusion.
I need to remind you that throughout this thread the other participants have been complaining that you have presented no evidence, and that you have been responding that you have. In response to this back-and-forth so that discussion can return to the thread's topic I asked that you collect your evidence together. In my Message 366 I asked that you provide this evidence:
  • Photographs of the chariot wheels.
  • Videos of the chariot wheels (links are okay).
  • Current location (museum, laboratory, etc.) of any chariot wheels recovered from the sea floor.
  • Expert's names and analyses indicating that they're chariot wheels and not something else, such as natural formations, coral-encrusted pleasure boat steering wheels, etc.
  • If expert analyses indicate these are ancient chariot wheels, then provide expert's names and analyses indicating the chariot wheels are from the appropriate period and region.
And in my Message 427 I asked that you provide this evidence:
  • Just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the alter?
  • Again, just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the golden calf?
  • What is the evidence tying the petroglyphs to the ancient Hebrews of the Exodus?
  • What is the evidence that the mountain is guarded?
  • Assuming that the rationale for the Saudis guarding the mountain is that they know something profoundly important about it that the rest of the world doesn't know and that they don't want the rest of the world to know, what is the evidence that the Saudis believe it is the site of the fleeing Israelite's Mt. Sinai camp?
Thank you.
I have no further evidence than what I have cited. If you choose to close the thread or disqualify me from further participation, that's your call.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Admin, posted 03-05-2011 4:11 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Admin, posted 03-05-2011 10:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

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