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Author Topic:   Question about lost tax money from religion
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 13 (515632)
07-20-2009 3:00 AM


I am curious as to how much tax money is lost yearly due to the tax exempt status religious institutions have in the United States and other countries. I searched on google but got no results. Can anyone help me with this?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Rrhain, posted 07-20-2009 5:09 AM themasterdebator has not replied
 Message 3 by Dr Jack, posted 07-20-2009 6:39 AM themasterdebator has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 2 of 13 (515639)
07-20-2009 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by themasterdebator
07-20-2009 3:00 AM


themasterdebator writes:
quote:
I am curious as to how much tax money is lost yearly due to the tax exempt status religious institutions have in the United States and other countries. I searched on google but got no results. Can anyone help me with this?
That would require public declaration of financial records from the religious group. While I do know that there is regulation regarding that (since violation causes one to lose tax-exempt status and thus examination must be made to ensure the rules are being followed), I'm not sure the groups are required to actually file complete records...only statements for things that would require taxation. That is, religious groups can engage in activity that is taxed, but so long as that activity is kept separate from other activity that is tax-exempt, they are allowed to be sheltered. They would need to provide for records for the latter, but I don't think they need to for the former.
That may be why it is so difficult to find information: It isn't reported.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 3 of 13 (515642)
07-20-2009 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by themasterdebator
07-20-2009 3:00 AM


Lost money?
In what sense is this "lost money"? Are you proposing to start taxing other charitable and non-profit organisations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by themasterdebator, posted 07-20-2009 3:00 AM themasterdebator has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Rahvin, posted 07-20-2009 1:20 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 4 of 13 (515659)
07-20-2009 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Jack
07-20-2009 6:39 AM


Re: Lost money?
For the part of the organization that is not charitable, your damn right. Evangelists have multi million dollar homes, fly around in private jets. Is this part of charity?
People that work for non-profits pay personal income taxes. These charlatans claim it is part of their"ministry" and pay no taxes.
Personally, I would double tax churches to pay for all the damage they do.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Rahvin
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Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 5 of 13 (515673)
07-20-2009 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Jack
07-20-2009 6:39 AM


Re: Lost money?
In what sense is this "lost money"? Are you proposing to start taxing other charitable and non-profit organisations?
Calling religious institutions "charitable" is not entirely honest. Yes, many of them do donate large sums of money to charitable works, and I have no problem with those specific funds being tax-exempt (if I donate to a charity, it's tax-exempt as well).
But many so-called "religious institutions" are most definitely run for profit. Televangelists are a perfect example. There's no reason whatsoever to consider the entire organization tax-exempt simply because some of them occasionally do some charity work. Let them write off their charitable contributions just like the rest of us do, and tax the rest of the organization normally.
There's no reason at all that an organization should be considered tax-exempt simply because they believe in some magic hoopity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dr Jack, posted 07-20-2009 6:39 AM Dr Jack has replied

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 6 of 13 (515676)
07-20-2009 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rahvin
07-20-2009 1:20 PM


Re: Lost money?
I don't think tarring the whole enterprise with the teleevangelism brush is particularly fair or sensible. Think more of your typical church. It provides a number of services, paid for by donations - I don't see that as an abuse of non-profit activities. What the church does or doesn't give to charity is largely irrelevant; the core activity is non-profit.
I assume teleevangelists themselves still pay tax on income?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Theodoric, posted 07-20-2009 1:34 PM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 8 by themasterdebator, posted 07-20-2009 2:13 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 7 of 13 (515679)
07-20-2009 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Jack
07-20-2009 1:25 PM


Re: Lost money?
I assume teleevangelists themselves still pay tax on income?
Not in the US. They claim it is all part of their "ministry". How would you separate private expenses from "ministry" expenses? They have figured all the scams.
Think more of your typical church. It provides a number of services, paid for by donations - I don't see that as an abuse of non-profit activities.
BS. A lot of these "charitable" are just for the perpetuation of the church. Yes lots of churches help the less fortuante. Many do nothing. Also, many churches require people to listen to their mumbo-jumbo before they will actually dispense of this "charity".
Please list some of these services "your typical" church provides.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Jack, posted 07-20-2009 1:25 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2009 3:58 AM Theodoric has replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 13 (515686)
07-20-2009 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Jack
07-20-2009 1:25 PM


Re: Lost money?
I don't think tarring the whole enterprise with the teleevangelism brush is particularly fair or sensible. Think more of your typical church. It provides a number of services, paid for by donations - I don't see that as an abuse of non-profit activities. What the church does or doesn't give to charity is largely irrelevant; the core activity is non-profit.
If this is true then they would have 0 issue not being tax exempt. The taxes they pay would be very minimal as most of their activities would be write offs. However, many churches spend allot of money on questionable activities, but simply because they are a church they are not required to be held accountable for them. Every charitable organization is required to fill out a detailed account of their expenses to make clear what is charitable and what is not. Churches are not. They can spend their money on a great many things that are not charitable and often do. This activity should be taxed and churches should be just as accountable as any other charitable organization.
And guys, I really wanted some facts over money lost. It would be nice to have for an argument. The closest thing I have gotten is a few unsourced claims on atheism.about.com

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 9 of 13 (515775)
07-21-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Theodoric
07-20-2009 1:34 PM


Re: Lost money?
Not in the US. They claim it is all part of their "ministry". How would you separate private expenses from "ministry" expenses? They have figured all the scams.
Well, they should pay their taxes. That's a seperate issue from whether the church itself is being taxed.
BS. A lot of these "charitable" are just for the perpetuation of the church. Yes lots of churches help the less fortuante. Many do nothing. Also, many churches require people to listen to their mumbo-jumbo before they will actually dispense of this "charity".
Please list some of these services "your typical" church provides.
Again, I'm not talking about "charity" outside of the church. The Church's business of being a church, providing worship, and spiritual support is rightly considered a non-profit and thus tax exempt activity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Theodoric, posted 07-20-2009 1:34 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2009 8:57 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 10 of 13 (515793)
07-21-2009 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Jack
07-21-2009 3:58 AM


Re: Lost money?
The Church's business of being a church, providing worship, and spiritual support is rightly considered a non-profit and thus tax exempt activity.
Why "rightly considered"? I disagree completely.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2009 3:58 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2009 8:58 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 11 of 13 (515794)
07-21-2009 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Theodoric
07-21-2009 8:57 AM


Re: Lost money?
Because it's not a profit making activity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2009 8:57 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2009 9:20 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 12 of 13 (515796)
07-21-2009 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Jack
07-21-2009 8:58 AM


Re: Lost money?
Because it's not a profit making activity.
The catholic church does not make a profit? You evidently have a different meaning for the word than I do. Ever seen the vatican treasures? What are the most richly appointed buildings in the world? Churches. You think they were free? How did they pay for them? From profits.
Edited by Theodoric, : spelling

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2009 8:58 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2009 9:38 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 13 of 13 (515800)
07-21-2009 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
07-21-2009 9:20 AM


Re: Lost money?
Being non-profit does not preclude an organisation from maintaining a reserve.

This message is a reply to:
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