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Author Topic:   What is supernatural?
tuffers
Member (Idle past 5275 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 1 of 13 (521631)
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


I often hear this alleged creator called God referred to as a supernatural being.
What does supernatural actually mean? I imagine it means some kind of different state of nature, but I can’t picture what that can mean. Can we ever identify, explain or even imagine something that is truly supernatural?
If something created our universe in a different state of nature from its own, does that not make our universe the supernatural state, and the creator’s original state the natural one?
If this creator exists in a different state to us, how is it able to create and influence our universe, and without us being able to see it? Is there some kind of one-way filter between different states?
And why would any creator want to create our universe in a different state from its own? Surely it would be easier to create our universe in its own state, especially if it wanted us to see its work.
Too many questions already. I’ll leave it open to discussion.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by hooah212002, posted 08-28-2009 11:54 AM tuffers has not replied
 Message 7 by onifre, posted 08-28-2009 1:18 PM tuffers has not replied
 Message 9 by Modulous, posted 08-28-2009 5:21 PM tuffers has not replied
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2009 6:57 AM tuffers has not replied
 Message 12 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 5:02 PM tuffers has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 13 (521640)
08-28-2009 10:55 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the What is supernatural? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 13 (521644)
08-28-2009 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tuffers
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


A supernatural entity, whether 'God' or something else, is merely a being who, in some ways or others, defies the physical laws of the natural world.
If this creator exists in a different state to us, how is it able to create and influence our universe, and without us being able to see it?
So long as said entity can interact with our universe we can detect such interactions and deduce the existence of the entity. Remember, we are no longer talking about 'natural' or 'empirical'. All of these seemingly impossible things become possible as soon as we label our creator 'supernatural', i.e., beyond nature.
Is this logical? Is this reasonable? Is this real?
I do not know.
Jon

[O]ur tiny half-kilogram rock just compeltely fucked up our starship. - Rahvin

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jacortina
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 08-07-2009


Message 4 of 13 (521652)
08-28-2009 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tuffers
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


My own working definition(s) would be something like:
The natural is all things which act and react and are manipulated according to their natures within overarching natural laws.
The supernatural is not limited to natural laws and thus can manipulate things beyond their own natures.
Nothing that man has done has at any time 'broken' any natural laws in his taking advantage of those laws and the natures of those things around him.
While we may not know everything about all natural laws, a being who is purported to create and/or suspend and/or amend such laws is pretty much by definition 'supernatural'.
This doesn't imply that the natural is a different state (to such a purported being) so much as it implies that it's a more limited realm fully within that being's 'state'.

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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 5 of 13 (521653)
08-28-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tuffers
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


And why would any creator want to create our universe in a different state from its own? Surely it would be easier to create our universe in its own state, especially if it wanted us to see its work.
I've often wondered this myself. Why would god even go through the trouble of creating man if his ultimate goal is for us to be in heaven anyways? He knows who will end up going there anyways. Why not just poof everyone into existence as angels? Is he bored and just giving himself something to do because it would be too easy to poof some angels?
Any question asked about god, IMO, seems to lead me to believe that he is not what he is claimed by christians to be.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 13 (521679)
08-28-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jacortina
08-28-2009 11:48 AM


What is Natural?
jacortina writes:
This doesn't imply that the natural is a different state (to such a purported being) so much as it implies that it's a more limited realm fully within that being's 'state'.
What it seems like this comes down to is definitions. If one defines 'natural' to encompass all things of existence, then there is nothing that could ever be - exist - that was not also 'natural'. However, if 'natural' is defined as something else which does not include all things of existence but merely those things that meet certain criteria, then it is possible for supernatural entities to be in ready existence.
I think your post has shed light on this fact; before we can continue, we must decide on a definition for 'natural', because depending upon our 'cut-off point', if you will, the possibility of existence outside of the natural could change. Yet, if our answers are dependent on the state of arbitrary definitions, then one might be led to wonder if our answers are really answers at all or if they are merely wastes of time.
So, I must ask tuffers: Is it really even worth considering whether a supernatural god can exist?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

[O]ur tiny half-kilogram rock just compeltely fucked up our starship. - Rahvin

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Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 7 of 13 (521681)
08-28-2009 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tuffers
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


What does supernatural actually mean?
Nothing. It is a human explanation for natural phenomena based off of a limited knowledge of the natural world.
Nothing that we know of can be labeled "supernatural." No action in nature is beyond natural explanations. The only thing that is called supernatural is an entity that can never be seen, and for all intent and purposes, is simply the by-product of human imagination.
- Oni

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jacortina
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 08-07-2009


Message 8 of 13 (521691)
08-28-2009 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jon
08-28-2009 1:13 PM


Re: What is Natural?
Don't take my post to imply that I personally hold that there IS anything which is supernatural. But just as I can contemplate what WOULD be the attributes of Santa Clause, I can do so with the supernatural.
And I felt that the separate 'two states' view in the OP was not necessarily how it had to be looked at. So, the questions based on that may not be that interesting to pursue.
I don't directly define the natural universe to encompass all things of existence. Rather, I have found no reason to think that anything exists which is beyond (or above/behind/around) the natural universe. But, in principle at least, the 'possibility' for them exists under the definition I use for the natural.
And while we may find numerous 'new' natural laws, I don't think that too many theists would consider God to be bound by such, therefore always allowing him to be beyond the limits of the natural.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 9 of 13 (521720)
08-28-2009 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tuffers
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


Once upon a time YHWH used to walk about in gardens and sitting in tents chatting to people. Spirits were manifest in forests, ghosts in old houses etc etc. They were part of our world just as much as houses and forests and tents.
Then we started developing methods of understanding the world better, philosophical ideas and physical methodology. At first YHWH retreated into the clouds, Zeus to a mountain, spirits became shapeshifters and too fast for the eye and ghosts could disapear and walk through walls.
As methodology became more advanced, as philosophy became more sceptical and as these started to produce some real advances, they moved to parallel dimensions and alternative realms - only interacting with our own where necessary. Science, conceded the believers, was very good at uncovering the secrets of the natural world...but when it comes to the erm...the erm...the super-natural world science is out of its depth. We have to use other methods such as relying tradition, revelation, intuition, to gleam information about the supernatural world.
So yeah, the supernatural is a defense mechanism against the unrelenting march of science.
Or maybe - it's a real realm that we cannot detect that chooses to reveal itself to a chosen few.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 13 (521788)
08-29-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tuffers
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


Unsatisfactory
What does supernatural actually mean?
It means whatever human beings need it to mean. It is the answer to those questions where the answer "we don't know" is unsatisfactory or unacceptable. It is an explanation for otherwise unexplained phenomenon where an explanation must be found. It is the cause of those events for which blind random chance seems too impersonal and arbitrary. It is a provider of purpose and meaning where otherwise none might exist. It is as undetectable and mysterious as is required to protect it from investigation and possible refutation. It is need. It is comfort. It is human desire.
It is whatever human beings require it to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tuffers, posted 08-28-2009 10:25 AM tuffers has not replied

  
tuffers
Member (Idle past 5275 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 11 of 13 (522017)
08-31-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jon
08-28-2009 1:13 PM


Re: What is Natural?
Hi Jon
Yes, I agree there is a problem defining "natural" and "supernatural", and we may be wasting our time even considering it. Just thought I'd give an opportunity to those who believe in supernatural beings to provide an explanation. Maybe it will at least make them think that they ought to know what supernatural actually means before they make claims to knowing of any supernatural beings.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 12 of 13 (522051)
08-31-2009 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tuffers
08-28-2009 10:25 AM


A conversation between Tuffers and a supernaturalist
Tuffers: What is supernatural?
Supernaturalist: It's a different state of nature.
Tuffers: I can't picture what that means.
Supernaturalist: Neither can I.
Tuffers: Wait... what?
Supernaturalist: Well, if I could, it wouldn't be supernatural, would it?
Tuffers: I... suppose not...?
Supernaturalist: Look, all of our understanding is based on our reality... so, how could we understand something that is not correlated with this reality? So, logically speaking, something "supernatural," something not of this reality, is pretty much unknowable by definition.
Tuffers: Um... okay. So, how do you distinguish something that is outside of this reality from something that we don't yet know about our own reality?
Supernaturalist: Ah. Well, uh...
Edited by Bluejay, : "is"

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tuffers, posted 08-28-2009 10:25 AM tuffers has replied

Replies to this message:
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tuffers
Member (Idle past 5275 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 13 of 13 (522087)
09-01-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Blue Jay
08-31-2009 5:02 PM


Re: A conversation between Tuffers and a supernaturalist
Dear Bluejay
Thanks for your enlightenment.

This message is a reply to:
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