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Author Topic:   Christian Laws
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 241 of 392 (516056)
07-23-2009 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Richh
07-22-2009 11:37 PM


I like your description of your practical experience of Christ. I don't know for sure what was the original premis of this 'topic' was, but I think this experience of Christ growing in us is the culmination of the purpose of the law.
Basically, the premise is that the there is no difference between the Old Covenant and the New. Purpledawn believe that old laws are simply brought forward, refined, clarified, like many Rabbis did.
What do you think? Is the Ten Commandments simply ammended with many "Christian" commandments. For example, "Husbands, love your wives even as Christ loved the church". Should we just regard that as a additional commandment to add to Moses's list?
I wanted to mention Hebrews 8:8-10, a quotation of Jeremiah 31:31-34. These are verses regarding the new covenant. (Pardon my quoting from memory) 'I will impart my laws into their mind and on their hearts I will inscribe them'. What was formerly outside on tablets is now inscribed within. In my experience, I liken it to being given a new appetite.
Once I saw a robin strenuously pulling an big night crawler our of my garden. It was obviously motivated by some relish. I was thinking, I'd never like to eat an earthworm, but it occurred to me that the earthworm probably tasted good to the robin. I sure people who saw me read the Bible when I was a young Christian in the Army thought I was strange too. They had no appetite for it, but I had received a new appetite - new laws were insctibed in my heart.
The law is called the testimony of God, and, by inscribing His laws into our hearts and on our minds, He is making us into His expression.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17). (However, He is the end of the law unto righteoussness (Rom 10:4). Righteous is imputed, and based on imputed righteousness, His divine life is also imparted.)
I also like Romans 8:4 - 'that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.' It is fulfilled in us, but not by ourselves alone, as you mentioned, like power steering.
I think I mentioned power steering rather than Purpledawn Richh.
But I follow you and agee with you. Was there a time when you realized that there was some difference in the Old Testament Law keeping and the New Testament walk according to the Spirit?
Do you recall when that truth first really impressed you? For I think it is natural for us to think we have to grit our teeth and be good people according to our natural strength.
What do think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Richh, posted 07-22-2009 11:37 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Richh, posted 07-27-2009 10:34 PM jaywill has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 242 of 392 (516057)
07-23-2009 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by jaywill
07-23-2009 3:41 AM


Get on topic
Kliebold proposed helping your beloved natural selection by mass murder.
Not much difference in me doing that from PD pointing to the murder of a doctor at a clinic as standard Christian behavior
Isn't that what I said in a reply to the same message? I had hoped you would observe that and drop it.
I've flagged your message as being off-topic.
PD pointing to the murder of a doctor at a clinic as standard Christian behavior
If you wish to contest that point, then contest that point. Don't divert the topic in another direction.
NO REPLIES TO THIS MESSAGE (could get you a suspension).
Now I need to search down that PurpleDawn message to check what she said.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change subtitle.

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There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Message 150

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jaywill, posted 07-23-2009 3:41 AM jaywill has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 243 of 392 (516083)
07-23-2009 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by jaywill
07-23-2009 3:27 AM


quote:
In this topic I take "Christians principles" or even your usage of the phrase Christian laws" to mean what the Christian Gospel teaches.
The phrase "Christian Laws" is not mine, it is Peg's. One would think that Christian principles or Christian Laws would come from the Gospels. A principle is still a rule or code of conduct. I'm still waiting for the list.
quote:
To understand what Christians should do we should look to what the New Testament teaches.
Which is what I have been saying. Message 114
What you and Peg have not been able to show is what specifically Christians are held accountable to without using catch phrases and metaphors. Straight talk. That's what I asked for in Message 228.
quote:
What the New Testament teaches seems secondary to you. For your purpose of discrediting the Gospel you desire to look at what religious people do as an "anity" focusing on the media's sensational leading stories of violent activism.
You know better than that and you know that what I stated in Message 230 was not focusing on media sensationalism. I was addressing your implication in Message 229 that coercion should not part of the Christian character. Reality shows otherwise. You still haven't shown clearly what behaviors or actions Christians will be held accountable for.
quote:
Yes, you have said that. And I agree somewhat. But I gave you several cases which you apparently were not too easily able to show were "carried forward" Old Testament laws.
Because they were either creative expressions or beliefs, not addressing specific requirements of behavior other than repentance which is in the OT. Message 224
You didn't show that the verses actually referred to specific actions.
quote:
Paul labored with them because they had been "bewitched". They had evilly been distracted from the Gospel of grace and were being cheated into going back to Old Covenant Law keeping in the strength of thier flesh. Paul was trying to bring them into walking by the Spirit. And he labored to have Christ formed in them. That is the living and resurrected Jesus imparting His own available nature and Person into them, taking shape, devloping, maturing, and comforming them to His own image.
That is what the NT teaches.
Still catch phrases and metaphors. Translate that into practical application, real actions that all Christians are held accountable for.
quote:
That is a slight improvement over looking at the shooting of a man at a clinic and claiming and implying that this is a norm for Christian behavior.
However, I gave you several principles taught in the New Testament and you seemed unable or unclear about locating what Old Testament laws were being brought forth.
Again you know better than that. I didn't claim it was a norm for Christian behavior, but that it shows along with the other examples, that coercion is promoted within Christianity and manifests in different ways. So if one requirement is not to coerce others, then many Christians are out of line. Where is it alluded to in the NT that one must not coerce?
quote:
That is true, if they grow. So many parables of Christ teach this. The parable of the sower and the different kinds of soil in Matthew 13:1-23 teaches that the heart the receives the word of the kingdom of the heavens needs cultivation.
That verse has nothing to do with behavior expected of those who already believe.
Take a 50 year old Christian who grew up in the Christian way of life and never strayed. What behaviors or actions will that Christian manifest to show faith in God? What behaviors or actions will that Christian be held accountable for on judgment day?
As Peg said and I quoted in Message 6:
Peg writes:
To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs.
The point of this thread is to list those laws/principles clearly and explain why they are laws or principles for Christians. So far, everything listed seems to come from the Mosaic or Jewish laws.
quote:
Yet you could not identify what laws were being brought forward in several cases that I asked you about. So you really haven't proved your case in those instances. I could probably mention many more.
Why have you not been able to demonstrate what Old Testament law was being brought forward? You could simply admit that you cannot find them.
As I said in Message 224, this thread concerns behavior. The verses you provided didn't deal with specific behaviors.
List the behaviors or actions that are associated with the verses you provided and then I can tell if they were brought forward from the Jewish laws or not. Below are the verses you provided.
Jaywill writes:
2 Peter 1:4 - " ... you might become partakers of the divine nature ..."
1 John 3:9 - "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin,...
Eph.15,16 - "But holding to truth in love, we may grow into Him in all things, who is the Head Christ, our from whom all the Body,...
Gal. 4:19 - "My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you."
2 Cor. 3:18 - "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed...
John 6:53,54 - "Jesus therefore said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood...
The other two deal with repentance or stopping wrong behavior and doing right behavior. Not a new concept.
Jaywill writes:
Rom. 13:14 - " ... put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to [fulfill its] lusts"
Eph. 4:24 - "And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the truth."
But these don't address specific behaviors or actions.
For one to repent or throw off the old and put on the new, one has to know what is considered right and what is considered wrong. That is the point of this thread. Please keep on track.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by jaywill, posted 07-23-2009 3:27 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jaywill, posted 07-23-2009 1:04 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 251 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:10 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 244 of 392 (516084)
07-23-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Richh
07-22-2009 11:37 PM


Inscribed Laws
quote:
The law is called the testimony of God, and, by inscribing His laws into our hearts and on our minds, He is making us into His expression.
Please list the laws that are inscribed on the hearts of Christian believers.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Richh, posted 07-22-2009 11:37 PM Richh has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 245 of 392 (516118)
07-23-2009 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by purpledawn
07-23-2009 9:56 AM


The phrase "Christian Laws" is not mine, it is Peg's. One would think that Christian principles or Christian Laws would come from the Gospels. A principle is still a rule or code of conduct. I'm still waiting for the list.
This is beginning to sound like a disagreement in search of a discussion. I am not arguing Peg's concepts. And maybe I should just let you and Peg hash out whatever it is you have between you both.
Or my responses to you are going to be focused and selective on thinks you say to me, not things you wrote to Peg.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To understand what Christians should do we should look to what the New Testament teaches.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is what I have been saying. Message 114
What you and Peg have not been able to show is what specifically Christians are held accountable to without using catch phrases and metaphors. Straight talk. That's what I asked for in Message 228.
I already did that if I recall. I don't know what you mean by "straight talk". If you cannot understand the New Testament utterances you need to put forth more effort to do so. I am not going out of my way to be bound by your hypothetical standard of "straight talk".
I don't know what could be straighter than the clear warnings that certain continued behaviors will cause a Christian not to inherit the kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21 which is followed by positive behaviors which are taught to be "the fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22-25).
You have a similiar exhortation of accountability in 1 Cor. 6:9,10 and a further triple reinforcment of the sense of accoutability in Ephesians 5:5-7)
There are three passages of very straight warnings that the disciples are accountable not to live in a lifestyle of practicing such things.
If you say "Thou shalt not ... thus and such" is a straight talking law you should be able to appreciate that "those who practice such things" is equally clear on accountability of Christians.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the New Testament teaches seems secondary to you. For your purpose of discrediting the Gospel you desire to look at what religious people do as an "anity" focusing on the media's sensational leading stories of violent activism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know better than that and you know that what I stated in Message 230 was not focusing on media sensationalism. I was addressing your implication in Message 229 that coercion should not part of the Christian character. Reality shows otherwise. You still haven't shown clearly what behaviors or actions Christians will be held accountable for.
What "reality" ? You mean the reality that it is possible for a Christian to be immature and not manifest Christ ? And to your latter sentence you have just received three passages on accountability. I doubt that it the first time they were pointed out.
What you haven't done is shown how several principles represent the Old Testament laws being brought forward Hillel style. Readers of the discussion may forget. I haven't forgotten that you have not addressed those requests.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you have said that. And I agree somewhat. But I gave you several cases which you apparently were not too easily able to show were "carried forward" Old Testament laws.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they were either creative expressions or beliefs, not addressing specific requirements of behavior other than repentance which is in the OT. Message 224
You didn't show that the verses actually referred to specific actions.
I think you're just postering here.
You are also talking with great aplumb about things which you don't know much about. I am not sure you even want to know about them. For explanations you dismiss as too metaphorical and not straight talk. They concepts may be profound. But I have labored to help you have some understanding. I know that it is possible for willing hearted people to have at least some understanding of even profound or metaphorical passages in the Bible.
I think you don't know what they mean. That is Okay. But I think you don't want to know either.
Perhaps you cannot discern spiritual matters and they seem like "foolishness" to you because you are too carnal minded (1 Cor.1:18)
Paul had that problem with the recipients of his First Corinthian letter.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul labored with them because they had been "bewitched". They had evilly been distracted from the Gospel of grace and were being cheated into going back to Old Covenant Law keeping in the strength of thier flesh. Paul was trying to bring them into walking by the Spirit. And he labored to have Christ formed in them. That is the living and resurrected Jesus imparting His own available nature and Person into them, taking shape, devloping, maturing, and comforming them to His own image.
That is what the NT teaches.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still catch phrases and metaphors. Translate that into practical application, real actions that all Christians are held accountable for.
You should be able to understand life and the growth and maturity of life.
There will be no apologies from me because you don't want to know what the New Testament is talking about.
You are here apparently Studying the New Testament. But in in actuality maybe you don't want to know what it teaches.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a slight improvement over looking at the shooting of a man at a clinic and claiming and implying that this is a norm for Christian behavior.
However, I gave you several principles taught in the New Testament and you seemed unable or unclear about locating what Old Testament laws were being brought forth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again you know better than that. I didn't claim it was a norm for Christian behavior, but that it shows along with the other examples, that coercion is promoted within Christianity and manifests in different ways. So if one requirement is not to coerce others, then many Christians are out of line. Where is it alluded to in the NT that one must not coerce?
Please indicate the New Testament teaching telling the disciples to kill doctors.
This is why my focus is on what the NT teaches. By the way, the coercion that I was speaking of was applied to the Holy Spirit. I said that the symbol of the Holy Spirit was a DOVE which was antithetical to coercion.
That seemed to go over your head. You shifted the matter to Christian on Christian behavior molding.
Now if I tell you that the Paul's illustration of the members of the Body EACH receiving their instructions from the HEAD, you would protest that that is too metaphorical. You want straight talk.
Each member of the Body of Christ receives its leading from the Head of the Body Christ. Just like your fingers, you wrist, your hand, your elbows, all receive thier impulses from your HEAD, your brain.
Members paralyzed or epileptic may have a problem between them and the HEAD. If the case of the person claiming to be a disciple of Jesus nurdered someone for a supposedly Christian cause, I think it is obvious that between him and his HEAD, Christ, there was a problem. He wasn't following the Head. That is pretty evident because "the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God".
That verse has nothing to do with behavior expected of those who already believe.
Every principle that I have shared with you has to do with behavior. The second part of your sentence does not make sense to me.
" .. behavior expected of those who already believe"
I am not sure what in the world you have as an objection against this. Of course we are talking about those who have already believed. HELLO !!
I have all along been speaking of principles taught by the Christian Gospel in the Christian New Testament written to Christians (those who believe into Christ).
Borrowing from Cool Hand Luke, I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
Take a 50 year old Christian who grew up in the Christian way of life and never strayed. What behaviors or actions will that Christian manifest to show faith in God? What behaviors or actions will that Christian be held accountable for on judgment day?
There is more than one judgment. There is not one all-encompassing judgment day.
Secondly, we are told not to judge before the time. You are asking me to judge a fellow believer before the time. That is the job of his Master.
It is good enough that we are warned of accountablilty which is obvious to me. I mentioned three passages at least that warn us Christians of accountability.
Do not ask me to specify what the Master will say to Brother or Sister X before the time when they come to stand before Jesus Christ. That is not my responsibility. I am not going to put words in the mouth of Jesus concerning extactly what He was say to any other Christian brother.
My chief concern is what will He say to jaywill. I told you of accountability. It is clear. I am told:
[b]"Do not judge, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you.
And why do you look at the splinter which is in your brother's eye, but the beam in your eye you do not consider? Or how can you say to your brother, Let me remove the splinter from your eye, and behold, the beam is in your eye? "{/b
The princple of the kingdom living of Christians is that we be strict towards ourselves but accomodating towards others. And I cannot usurp the position of Christ to tell you what He will say to ANY brother on the day he gives an account to Jesus.
The point of this thread is to list those laws/principles clearly and explain why they are laws or principles for Christians. So far, everything listed seems to come from the Mosaic or Jewish laws.
Disingenous. Again I listed many principles which you have been unable to trace back to Mosaic laws. Instead of doing so you either move the goal post, complain that they are not related to behacior (a false objection), complain that metaphors are not straight talk enough, or some other dodge.
[qs] quote:
As I said in Message 224, this thread concerns behavior. The verses you provided didn't deal with specific behaviors.
Every single principle I mentioned is related to behaviors, specific and broadly general.
You have enough examples. You had a good mix of types of examples. it is just that you cannot make your thesis follow through with them.
List the behaviors or actions that are associated with the verses you provided and then I can tell if they were brought forward from the Jewish laws or not. Below are the verses you provided.
Jaywill writes:
2 Peter 1:4 - " ... you might become partakers of the divine nature ..."
However Christ acts that is the behavior of the divine nature.
1 John 3:9 - "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin,...
The principle here is abiding in the non-sinning nature which has been imparted into the believer in Christ.
Abiding in another Person is the behavior.
Eph.15,16 - "But holding to truth in love, we may grow into Him in all things, who is the Head Christ, our from whom all the Body,...
The behavior is not being distracted from Christ the Head of this organic Body the church. The behavior is receiving all our impulses from Christ the Head.
Gal. 4:19 - "My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you."
I dealt with this before. The implied behavior is ALLOWING Christ to be formed in you. Behaving in such a way as not to resist or frustrate that formation of one Person within another - Christ being formed in each disciple.
And I have to leave the forum now and attend to other things.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by purpledawn, posted 07-23-2009 9:56 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by purpledawn, posted 07-23-2009 6:34 PM jaywill has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 246 of 392 (516170)
07-23-2009 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jaywill
07-23-2009 1:04 PM


quote:
I don't know what could be straighter than the clear warnings that certain continued behaviors will cause a Christian not to inherit the kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21 which is followed by positive behaviors which are taught to be "the fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22-25).
And yet neither you nor Peg has listed anything from Galatians 5:19-25.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the spirit, let us keep in step with the spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
The word for witchcraft is pharmakeia which also refers to the administering of drugs.
To understand what is expected of us today, we have to understand what specific actions Paul was referring to. These are still general references and not specific.
From what I've read of the OT the acts of the sinful nature listed weren't allowed by the Jewish Laws. Paul brings these forward.
Straight talk means to stop using vague references, metaphors and catch phrases that are subjective and be specific about the behavior or action required.
quote:
Disingenous. Again I listed many principles which you have been unable to trace back to Mosaic laws. Instead of doing so you either move the goal post, complain that they are not related to behacior (a false objection), complain that metaphors are not straight talk enough, or some other dodge.
Then we are at an impasse. I don't see specific behaviors or actions listed in those verses. So I can't address them and you aren't able to present the actions as a practical application I can recognize. Message 6

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jaywill, posted 07-23-2009 1:04 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by jaywill, posted 07-23-2009 8:19 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 250 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 4:32 AM purpledawn has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 247 of 392 (516179)
07-23-2009 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by purpledawn
07-23-2009 6:34 PM


To understand what is expected of us today, we have to understand what specific actions Paul was referring to. These are still general references and not specific.
As far as Galatians is concerned, this epistle is written to the Christian disciples in the province of Galatia. It is NOT addressed to society in general in Galatia.
The "fruits of the Spirit" is only possible to those who have received the Spirit. That would be the those who have received Christ.
The fruits of the Spirit are not demanded of Galatian society as a whole. The Galatians unbelievers first have to receive the indwelling Christ, the Spirit, and be regenerated.
Then the exhortations would apply to them.
From what I've read of the OT the acts of the sinful nature listed weren't allowed by the Jewish Laws. Paul brings these forward.
For the most part they were not. I agree. But Paul is definitely not exhorting the Galatian Christians to return to Old Testament Law keeping in the power of the natural man. Here is the proof of that, though you may not understand it:
"O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you ... This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Habving begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh ? (See Gal. 3:1-3)
The were regeneratedd by the Holy Spirit. They should continue to grow and walk by the Spirit. They should not allow themselves to be "bewitched" to return to trying to muster the energy in the flesh to keep the commandments of the Mosian law.
As they were reborn with a new life they should learn to continue in that new life. For this reason Paul also wrote:
"As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col. 2:6)
As they have started they should continue, abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ whom they have received.
Straight talk means to stop using vague references, metaphors and catch phrases that are subjective and be specific about the behavior or action required.
No, I think "straight talk" to you in this case means that you want me to make the New Testament sound like the Old Testament. You want me to take out of my talk reference to the indwelling of Christ.
Straight talk to you means that you want me to eliminate the core kernel of truth from the New Testament and reduce the 27 books to a series of Thou shalts and Thou shalt nots. This is precisely what the Judiazers were doing in bewitching the Galatian believers.
Paul was trying to teach the behavior which overflows as a by- product of walking by the Spirit.
I am sorry that you do not understand these things. First you have to understand Who Christ is. Then you have to understand that He is alive. Then you have to understand that He is available. Then you have to understand that if we abide in Him He abides in us. Christ Himself becomes our righteousness.
That is why the Apostle wrote:
" .. I have suffered the loss of all things and count them refuse that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the rughteousness which is out of God and based on faith, to know Him ..." (Phil. 3:8b-10a)
Elsewhere he speaks of his behavior stemming from Christ living in him:
" .. it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." (See Gal. 2:20)
The basic underlying behavior in the New Testament is to live in union with a Person Christ, who is available as "a life giving Spirit" and can be dispensed into man's innermost being.
The "fruit of the Spirit" and my own phrase above - "behavior that overflows as a byproduct of walking by the Spirit" are the same concept.
It is true that both the Old Testament and the New Testament tell us not to steal. The difference is vast. The New Testament tells us first to receive the sinless One Jesus Christ, the non-stealing Son of God into our being as He is Spirit:
" ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) Then as we have received Him we are to continue to walk in Him as our realm, as our sphere.
The underlining behavior is to abide in Christ Who is alive and is available. Morality comes as a by product of abiding in Christ.
And yes, you and I probably are at an empasse and have been at that empasse for a long time. You don't understand what the New Testament means by the behavior of abiding in Christ Who is alive and available.
This is probably because you do not believe it to be true.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by purpledawn, posted 07-23-2009 6:34 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by purpledawn, posted 07-23-2009 9:37 PM jaywill has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 248 of 392 (516189)
07-23-2009 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by jaywill
07-23-2009 8:19 PM


quote:
As far as Galatians is concerned, this epistle is written to the Christian disciples in the province of Galatia. It is NOT addressed to society in general in Galatia.
The "fruits of the Spirit" is only possible to those who have received the Spirit. That would be the those who have received Christ.
The fruits of the Spirit are not demanded of Galatian society as a whole. The Galatians unbelievers first have to receive the indwelling Christ, the Spirit, and be regenerated.
Then the exhortations would apply to them.
I said before that this thread is not concerning non Christians. This is about Christian Laws or code of conduct for Christians. Not anyone else.
quote:
Paul was trying to teach the behavior which overflows as a by- product of walking by the Spirit.
I'm quite familiar with Paul's intent.
Paul still expected a code of conduct from believers. How he went about teaching them is not the issue.
This thread is about the actual conduct (the act, manner, or process of carrying on) of the person. IOW, after all the teachings what code of conduct (a mode or standard of personal behavior especially as based on moral principles) will the person be held accountable to?
This isn't about salvation. This thread is based on Peg's statement.
quote:
You don't understand what the New Testament means by the behavior of abiding in Christ Who is alive and available.
Yes I do, but it has nothing to do with this thread. What enables one to follow the code of conduct is irrelevant.
The code of conduct that shows that one has faith in God is the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by jaywill, posted 07-23-2009 8:19 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jaywill, posted 07-24-2009 3:24 AM purpledawn has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 249 of 392 (516201)
07-24-2009 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by purpledawn
07-23-2009 9:37 PM


I said before that this thread is not concerning non Christians. This is about Christian Laws or code of conduct for Christians. Not anyone else.
I know that. And two matters you wrote concerned me that you did not know that.
One, you said something about "to understand what is expected of us". Two, you protested something about I wrote about those who were already Christians, which would be quite appropriate.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul was trying to teach the behavior which overflows as a by- product of walking by the Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm quite familiar with Paul's intent.
I doubt it.
Paul still expected a code of conduct from believers. How he went about teaching them is not the issue.
You like to repeat what the thread is about and what is and is not the issue. These are simply tactics to limit the discussion to your strawman arguments.
I know this because you are imploying every kind of excuse to not pinpoint what Old Testament laws were being brought forward in several Christian principles. You could not do it.
This thread is about the actual conduct (the act, manner, or process of carrying on) of the person.
There you go again. Abiding in Christ is a conduct. It is the most basic. Setting the mind on the spirit (the regenerated human spirit) can also be considered a conduct. It is most basic. Holding fast to Christ as the preeminent one, the Head, in the Christian church is a conduct. It is a most basic one.
IOW, after all the teachings what code of conduct (a mode or standard of personal behavior especially as based on moral principles) will the person be held accountable to?
I am not sure what "IOW" stands for.
But once again if the fruit of the Spirit is listed in Galatians and the works of the flesh are listed in Galatians, then it should be obvious that the warning (Gal.5:21) is a matter of accountablity.
" ... and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (v.21)
The accountability is based on the believer's failure to produce the fruits of the Spirit and thier refusal to be transformed out of the works of the flesh.
The penalty could be that they will not inherit the kingdom of God. That does not mean eternal punishment. It does mean that as long as they are untransformed they will not inherit the reward of reigning with Christ in His coming manifestation of the kingdom.
You can ascertain this by reading Galatians 5:13 - 25. And the basic positive behavior is to walk by the Spirit.
This isn't about salvation. This thread is based on Peg's statement.
Stop trying to dictate the terms of the discussion so as to give security to your strawman argument.
Why is it not about salvation? And it also depends upon what you mean by salvation. The salvation of the soul consists in producing the fruits of the Spirit. For such fruits come from the transformation of the soul (the mind, the emotion, and the will).
So there is no way that you can separate the matter of the soul's transfomation from the salvation of the soul.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't understand what the New Testament means by the behavior of abiding in Christ Who is alive and available.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I do, but it has nothing to do with this thread. What enables one to follow the code of conduct is irrelevant.
The code of conduct that shows that one has faith in God is the issue.
No it is not irrelevant. Abiding in Christ that Christ may abide in the believer is a conduct. Which Old Testament law is being brought forward?
Perhaps you should consider trying to answer that. Or you could reconsider your underlying argument that all Christians principles are only Old Testament laws being brought forward Hillel style.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by purpledawn, posted 07-23-2009 9:37 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by purpledawn, posted 07-24-2009 6:55 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 250 of 392 (516207)
07-24-2009 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by purpledawn
07-23-2009 6:34 PM


purpledawn writes:
To understand what is expected of us today, we have to understand what specific actions Paul was referring to. These are still general references and not specific.
Of course they are general references because Paul spoke in terms of 'principles'. This is because not everbody had the same practices, and there are some practices from ancient times that are not around today, so for Gods word to apply to all mankind, it could not be too specific.
Principles are general so they can be applied to any time, any culture, any gender.
eg, back in the first century people drank blood. Paul listed blood as something that a christian should abstain from. He didnt specify what sort of blood, or purposes in drinking it or how to abstain...he simply said to Abstain from it.
Acts 15:19-21 "to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood."
Now comes the part for how a christain should apply that principle.
Could they drink it to sustain themselves? Abstain from blood
Could they use it in cooking? Abstain from blood
Could they use it as a lubricant? Abstain from blood
Could they use it to paint the walls? Abstain from blood
what about today?
Could they use it in their cooking? Abstain from blood
Could they use it in their medicines? Abstain from blood
Could they inject it into their veins? Abstain from blood
So this is why christian laws are much broader then a mere 'do this dont do that'. The christian must live by conscience, showing Gods laws to be on his heart rather then live by a set of do's and dont's. Remember the Isrealites had that list and it was a dismal failure becuase a law is only good if its applied. If people dont apply them then what good are they?
Christian laws are broad and its up to christians to apply them in all facets of their lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by purpledawn, posted 07-23-2009 6:34 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by purpledawn, posted 07-24-2009 6:51 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 251 of 392 (516212)
07-24-2009 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by purpledawn
07-23-2009 9:56 AM


purpledawn writes:
The phrase "Christian Laws" is not mine, it is Peg's. One would think that Christian principles or Christian Laws would come from the Gospels. A principle is still a rule or code of conduct. I'm still waiting for the list.
what did i say in the first sentence of my OP?
"Unlike the Mosaic Law, the Christian laws are not given as one continuous list of laws. They are found throughout the writings of the NT in discussions and discourses given by the Apostles"
If you want to learn those laws you need to read the NT and accept that the writings of the apostles are in fact the writings of the apostles and are also inspired of God.
If you dont believe the writings of the NT to hold any authority, then its understandable why you are still asking the question.
Do you trust the writings of the NT enough to believe that the principles and laws stated therein are what Christians need to abide by?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by purpledawn, posted 07-23-2009 9:56 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by purpledawn, posted 07-24-2009 6:28 AM Peg has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 252 of 392 (516216)
07-24-2009 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Peg
07-24-2009 6:10 AM


quote:
what did i say in the first sentence of my OP?
"Unlike the Mosaic Law, the Christian laws are not given as one continuous list of laws. They are found throughout the writings of the NT in discussions and discourses given by the Apostles"
If you want to learn those laws you need to read the NT and accept that the writings of the apostles are in fact the writings of the apostles and are also inspired of God.
If you dont believe the writings of the NT to hold any authority, then its understandable why you are still asking the question.
Do you trust the writings of the NT enough to believe that the principles and laws stated therein are what Christians need to abide
And what did I say in Message 6
PD writes:
I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day.
I keep asking because Christians keep claiming that the Mosaic Law came to and end, but keep holding people up to portions of that law.
I keep asking because Christians avoid the issue.
That doesn't mean you can't make a list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:10 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 8:28 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 253 of 392 (516221)
07-24-2009 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Peg
07-24-2009 4:32 AM


quote:
Of course they are general references because Paul spoke in terms of 'principles'. This is because not everbody had the same practices, and there are some practices from ancient times that are not around today, so for Gods word to apply to all mankind, it could not be too specific.
That's essentially what I concluded in Message 114, but you disagree with that conclusion.
PD writes:
Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.
We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.
There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. (Message 114)
quote:
So this is why christian laws are much broader then a mere 'do this dont do that'. The christian must live by conscience, showing Gods laws to be on his heart rather then live by a set of do's and dont's. Remember the Isrealites had that list and it was a dismal failure becuase a law is only good if its applied. If people dont apply them then what good are they?
The Jewish Laws weren't a "dismal" failure. They were the legal system for that nation and culture and had good and bad points just like any legal system. The laws changed and adjusted as the nation/culture changed.
Paul's argument concerning the law dealt with gaining salvation, I'm not asking about behavior as a means to salvation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 4:32 AM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 254 of 392 (516222)
07-24-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by jaywill
07-24-2009 3:24 AM


quote:
Perhaps you should consider trying to answer that. Or you could reconsider your underlying argument that all Christians principles are only Old Testament laws being brought forward Hillel style.
That's not what I said in Message 114.
PD writes:
Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.
We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.
There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before.
You two do realize that the ancient writings includes the NT writers don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jaywill, posted 07-24-2009 3:24 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 255 of 392 (516236)
07-24-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by purpledawn
07-24-2009 6:28 AM


Whats your list?
PD, have you collated your own list of laws from the NT?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by purpledawn, posted 07-24-2009 6:28 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by purpledawn, posted 07-24-2009 10:24 AM Peg has replied
 Message 260 by John 10:10, posted 07-25-2009 9:56 AM Peg has not replied

  
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