Define literal vs non-literal.

Hi Apothecus without knowing exactly what their reasoning is...or how they explain it...i am left a little confused.Cardinal numbers have a full value, but ordinal numbers hold partial values.with ordinal numbers, such as 1st, 2nd 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th, it would be necessary to subtract one to obtain the full number.... so how can they subtract 1 from the 1st day???if they subtract 1 from the 2nd day, it would really be the first day and so forth which would imply a non literal interpretation anyway.

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There are many occasions when reading through the threads here that I come across this sentence:
"Well that's obviously not to be taken literally - it was just a dream/song/interpretation that had at the time"

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When reading the bible, what are the rules around what is to be taken literally, and what is not?

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Are there any rules?

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Yes, there are rules of interpretation. These rules basically say to pay attention to the grammatical details in the original language, the literary context of the passage, and the historical and cultural context in which the passage was first written. Many books have been written on biblical hermeneutics (the study of biblical interpretation), and all Bible colleges and seminaries teach courses on hermeneutics.

because from 6pm - 6am (evening to morning or morning to evening) the number of hours are only 12.For some reason you are still counting them as 24. How do you get 24???If the genesis account says 'and their came to be evening and morning a 1st/2nd/3rd day' then what happened to the other 12 hours of each of these days? They've gone missing becaues the text doesnt say there came to be 'evening and evening' which would be 24 hours...it says 'evening & morning' which is only 12 hours.IOW, the 'day' in genesis is not a literal 24 hours as you keep trying to assert. the Yom does not have to mean 24 hours though. Genesis itself shows this. you said that my question about eve being created on the same day as adam was moot, but in fact it is not.The story implies that Adam lived for a length of time before eve was created...yet she was also created on the 6th day. So how can this be? If he lived alone for long enough to name all the animals and begin to feel lonely, surely this was longer then a few hours. This must have been several years at least.but it was still on the 6th day. Obviously the story implies that the 6th day was much longer then 24hours. you have taken Jesus out of context here. The beginning of creation was the universe, the planets and stars ,also the only begotten son and the angels... not adam and eve. So you've simply misread this verse. Jesus is not saying that the very first thing God created was Adam and Eve...even the genesis account does not say this, so you are contradicting genesis which means you've got the wrong interpretation of Jesus words. Really he is just refering to the human creation here, nothing more.You could read it like this
"From the beginning of mankinds creation, he made them male and female"

In response to the OP questions you stated in Message 11: It comes down to the meaning of the original word and the context of the passage.I don't see that you are doing that with the use of "yom" in the Genesis account.I agree that the word "yom" has many meanings and that these meanings are determined by how the word is used within the sentence.By stating that there was evening and there was morning the first day, the author is using the word "yom" to refer to what we call a 24 hour day.I would say your interpretation of a long period of time is not literal (adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression). Bible Literalism supposedly contains two schools. Letterism and a Historical Grammatical Method. The historical grammatical method is close to the method I prefer, which is P'shat.Your interpretation doesn't seem to fit into either school. The text doesn't say there was evening to morning the first day, it says there was evening and there was morning. I have only one morning and one evening per 24 hour period. I haven't found anything to say otherwise for the time of the priestly writer.I haven't figured out how you can talk of context to determine meaning and then ignore the use of a word within the sentence all together.Your context seems to be in relation to your doctrine, not the text itself.Determining literal and non-literal for the Bible should be the same as when we read any other book.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Hi Peg.Going on vacation for a few days after today. So you do not get your usual quick response from me....be patient.Now, lets get down to business.hERICtic writes:
Unless I misspoke, I stated that any time evening and morning are used, it refers to a day was we know it. I'm not sure how your "12" hour reference helps your case whatsover. Its even less time than what I claim. Its would still be 6 increments of daylight as per Genesis when the world was created. But as I have shown you, "day" can mean daylight or 24 hours. Peg, if it only means 12 hours, then its even less time for you. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up this 12 hours scenario. Your point of view is that its billons of years. But just to clarify, Genesis does NOT say evening to morning. It states there WAS evening, which is the beginning of the darkness, and there WAS morning, the beginning of light-first day. Thats 24 hours. Peg, you have not given any evidence whatsover to the contrary. You believe its billions of years for one reason only, the evidence is too overwhelming to suggest otherwise. If science tomorrow said they were incorrect and the earth was created within a week, you'd jump all over how miraculous Genesis is!I on the other hand, have given you plenty of evidence.1) The description fits a day. Evening and morning.
2) Every time in scripture evening and morning are used, it refers to a 24 hour period.
3) Every time a number precedes "yom", it refers to a 24 hour period.
4) There are words in Hebrew that denote long periods of time.
5) There isnt any indication its a long period of time.
6) Each day, states evening and morning. If a day is billions of years, you'd have billions of years of darkness, followed by billions of years of light and so on. Do you really think the authors believed that animals and plants lived in darkness for millions of years?
7) Exodus twice states that the earth was created in six days.
8) I'm never wrong. hERICtic writes:
Only to you. You need it to be. The point is EVERY time evening and morning are mentioned, it refers to a day as we know it. The story gives no implication how long Adam was without Eve. He lived for 960 years. It could have been years. It could only have been a few animals also.hERICtic writes:
If the days were billions of years, then Adam and Eve were created at the END of creation. Scripture states the beginning.This contradicts the words of Jesus:"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6). No Peg, you cant. The word mankind is not present.More evidence: Mark 13:19
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.Notice it states the beginning of creation. This tribulation occured on the sixth day. If Genesis refers to billions of years, it would be the END of creation. If it refers to 24 hour days, it most certainly is the beginning of creation.Luke 11:50—51 (NKJV)
50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this.Jesus places Abel near the beginning of creation.Jesus tells you Peg to follow the words of Moses. According to Jesus, Moses wrote Exodus. Exodus clearly states, as I have said earlier, the earth was created in six days. If you're going to use the belief that it can be any amount of time, then you're obviously admitting the very words of Moses that Jesus tells you to trust are unclear.

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More evidence: Mark 13:19
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

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Notice it states the beginning of creation. This tribulation occured on the sixth day. If Genesis refers to billions of years, it would be the END of creation. If it refers to 24 hour days, it most certainly is the beginning of creation.

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I have never understood how YECs can twist words like this with a straight face. Whether one views the Creation as 6 literal days or as 6 long periods, man was created on Day 6, and then God ceased from His work of creating. No matter how you cut it, man was created at the END of the creation period, not at the beginning.The phrase "the beginning of creation" in the NT is NOT trying to distinguish between beginning, middle, or end of the creation period. Rather, the phrase is trying to communicate that "it has always been this way." This is clear from the context of each passage.

So tying this merry-go-round back to the topic of literal interpretations vs non-literal interpretations, what do you consider your approach?Peg is rather eclectic in her interpretations. She changes methods to suit her belief or doctrine. You seem to do the same.Using the Historical Grammatical Method I mentioned in Message 34, we can tell that Adam's age is not to be taken as a real age. Humans don't live 960 years and to the best of my knowledge, science hasn't found remains that would counter that fact.Per the Documentary Hypothesis, the ages in Genesis 5 were added by the Redactor and weren't part of the original story.So just as we read any other mythical story or fairy tale, we understand the magical and exaggerations to be part of the tale and strive to understand the lesson presented by the story.Per Richard Elliott Friedman, the Priestly writer was writing their own version of the creation story with less obvious magic in it. It is still a story.What we tend to see in arguments on EvC is creative literalism. Passages are interpreted to fit doctrine, not to understand the text.Please try to keep your discussion within the realm of the topic and keep the discussion moving forward, not in circles.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Hold on a second. It clearly states the tribulation occured at the BEGINNING of creation. How is the word creation used in context? To refer to "history", as in history of the world. Only a 24 hour literal day makes sense if it refers to history. If we use Pegs beliefs, it would be at the very end of history, not the beginning.Romans 8:19-23 (English Standard Version)
19For the creation waits with eager longing for(A) the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation(B) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but(C) because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that(D) the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that(E) the whole creation(F) has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have(G) the firstfruits of the Spirit,(H) groan inwardly as(I) we wait eagerly for adoption as sons,(J) the redemption of our bodies.Obviously creation does not mean just those six days, but from the very beginning to now.

Can you please count these numbers and tell me how many numbers you see? (i've made it easy and numbered each of the hours for you)0. 6pm - beginning of evening/darkness
1. 7pm
2. 8pm
3. 9pm
4. 10pm
5. 11pm
6. 12am
7. 1am
8. 2am
9. 3am
10. 4am
11. 5am
12. 6am - morning - beginning of lightnotice its 12 and not 24? You are saying that 'evening to morning' always means 24 hours. As you can see, it doesnt mean 24 hours at all. It simply means the darkness to the light, which is actually only 12.this is why i keep repeating that the Yom is not a literal 24 hours in length. And i do not claim that the Yom is billions of years either....i keep saying that it is an 'unspecified' length of time. It could be billions of years, or it could be millions of years or it could be thousands of years or hundreds of years....its UNSPECIFIED. It could be any of those....it could be 24 hours...or it could not be 12 hours or it could be 500 hours.One thing we can be confident of is that the the evidence within the book of Genesis does not point to 24 hours because as you can see, there are only 12 hours between the dark and the light. Yom simply means a 'time' an 'age' ....it doesnt mean a day as we know it.Further internal evidence to show that it cannot be 12 hours is from the fact that Adam lived for some time before Eve, he lived long enough to name all of the animals in the garden and to become lonely....this must have been longer then 12 hours of life for him.More internal evidence that it cannot be 1 single day as we know it comes from the fact that the 7th day did not come to an end....its still going. Ahhhh you see , this is where you have to open your eyes a little more.In jesus great prophecy about the 'great tribulation' he was warning his followers of the turmoil PEOPLE of the world would experience. The people up to that time had experienced many troubles, but the great tribulation that was to come in the 'last days' would be unprecedented in all human history.The beginning of the creation is refering to mankinds creation...not the earths. Before people existed, they experienced no tribulation because they did not exist....but from Adams creation (the beginning of the creation) onward, humans have experienced tribulation.Its human history Jesus is refering to. Yes, the beginning of MANKINDS creation...not the earths. He is refering to human activiity again... the first murdered man was Abel...but he wasnt murdered by his brother on the same day Adam and Eve were created. If it takes 9 months for a child to be born...and Able was a grown man when he was killed. How many days do you think he lived before he died? Yes, it says the earth was created in 6 YOM's.... As Jesus told us to listen to Moses that is exactly what we should do. And as Moses wrote in the Hebrew tongue, we should understand what a Yom can mean.and how long is a YOM?No one knows because in Hebrew it means an 'unspecified length of time'. It is unclear absolutely. But in the grand scheme of things, we dont NEED to know exactly how long each of the creative days were.Time keeping is only important from mans creation onward....this is why the bible chronology shows Adam to have been created in the year 4026BCE making the beginnig of human history 6,036 years ago. That is all we need to know.

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Romans 8:19-23 (English Standard Version)
19For the creation waits with eager longing for(A) the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation(B) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but(C) because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that(D) the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that(E) the whole creation(F) has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have(G) the firstfruits of the Spirit,(H) groan inwardly as(I) we wait eagerly for adoption as sons,(J) the redemption of our bodies.

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Obviously creation does not mean just those six days, but from the very beginning to now.

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According to your interpretation and argument, then, the creation was "subjected to futility" and in "bondage to corruption" from the very beginning, i.e. before Adam and Eve sinned, and before they were created. I don't think you'll find many YECs who want to interpret it this way!

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Can you please count these numbers and tell me how many numbers you see? (i've made it easy and numbered each of the hours for you)

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0. 6pm - beginning of evening/darkness
1. 7pm
2. 8pm
3. 9pm
4. 10pm
5. 11pm
6. 12am
7. 1am
8. 2am
9. 3am
10. 4am
11. 5am
12. 6am - morning - beginning of light

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notice its 12 and not 24? You are saying that 'evening to morning' always means 24 hours. As you can see, it doesnt mean 24 hours at all. It simply means the darkness to the light, which is actually only 12.

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this is why i keep repeating that the Yom is not a literal 24 hours in length. And i do not claim that the Yom is billions of years either....i keep saying that it is an 'unspecified' length of time. It could be billions of years, or it could be millions of years or it could be thousands of years or hundreds of years....its UNSPECIFIED. It could be any of those....it could be 24 hours...or it could not be 12 hours or it could be 500 hours.

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Pay attention!The verse does not say there was evening to morning. It says there was evening and there was morning. I have a morning and an evening every day.The usage we are discussing is referring to what we currently call a 24 hour day.I can't believe you two are still squawking over this. You're not moving the discussion forward.In the context of the sentence it is referring to a 24 hour day. The story of A&E has no bearing on the usage in the creation verses.You aren't reading the verse literally and reading it non-literally doesn't mean you get to make a context and usage.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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Pay attention!
The verse does not say there was evening to morning. It says there was evening and there was morning. I have a morning and an evening every day.

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The usage we are discussing is referring to what we currently call a 24 hour day.

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I can't believe you two are still squawking over this. You're not moving the discussion forward.

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In the context of the sentence it is referring to a 24 hour day. The story of A&E has no bearing on the usage in the creation verses.

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You aren't reading the verse literally and reading it non-literally doesn't mean you get to make a context and usage.

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But according to the story, the sun, moon, and stars do not appear until Day 4. And the text tells us WHY they appear: one of their purposes is to "be signs to indicate seasons and days and years" (Gen 1:14, NET). God saw a need for chronometers, so He created the sun, moon, and stars for this purpose. Until these chronometers appear, there is no sense in talking about length of time, since there is nothing by which to measure time. Thus I would argue from the text that the first three "days" are indefinite in length. They cannot be measured.

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But according to the story, the sun, moon, and stars do not appear until Day 4. And the text tells us WHY they appear: one of their purposes is to "be signs to indicate seasons and days and years" (Gen 1:14, NET). God saw a need for chronometers, so He created the sun, moon, and stars for this purpose. Until these chronometers appear, there is no sense in talking about length of time, since there is nothing by which to measure time. Thus I would argue from the text that the first three "days" are indefinite in length. They cannot be measured.

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The story isn't depicting a witnessed event. We also have to remember that the people knew of many stories. Since the person who complied the JE and Priestly writings cut and pasted, we have no idea what was left out if anything.God already separated the light from the darkness. What was making the light? The text doesn't say.In legends it is said that the sun and moon were equal at one point. The writer can only write what he knows. He knows there is an evening and a morning each day. The usage in the verse is consistent with a 24 hour day. Putting the cart before the horse doesn't change the meaning presented by the sentence.Evening (`ereb) means night, sunset.Morning (boqer) means end of night, coming of daylight.The author is making it clear he is speaking of a normal 24 hour day. Where he thought the light was coming from, we don't know. It obviously isn't important to the overall story.Whether the legend existed in some form at the time of the Priestly writer is unknown. Legends progressed orally and changed as the people changed, so the version written down can contain many changes. This version mentions the world to come which is a post exile concept, IMO.If we exclude the possibility that the author knew of the legend and had it in mind, then the author just didn't keep his writing consistent or the Redactor cut and pasted it in a way that made it inconsistent. We don't really know which.The usage in the sentence is clear. The author is speaking of a literal 24 hour day. It doesn't have the markings of a figurative usage. The inconsistencies of the story do not change the meaning in the sentence.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Lets use some common sense here. Without the sun the earth would be just like any other planet devoid of sufficient heat and light. Nothing could survive at all. Even if it took a literal day, life would be completely unsustainable let alone long epochs of time.Secondly, the 3rd verse of Genesis 1 has God saying: That of course makes no sense since God, according to the text, has yet to even create the sun, yet somehow there is light and it was called the "day?" Day and night, light and dark, only make sense in direct relation to the sun which hasn't even been created yet. How can you "evening" or "morning" when the only thing distinguishing is the sun, which hasn't even been created at that point?Yet somehow we're expected to believe the narrative actually happened? It makes for a terrible fiction novel let alone non-fiction. It's an absurdity. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

wow great pointTY.