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Author Topic:   The blurry line between religious and crazy
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 95 (727014)
05-14-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 3:16 PM


Re: destination/s
Dr Adequate writes:
... we would judge their efficiency by how many got away, what it cost per Jew....
Yup.
Dr Adequate writes:
... and indeed whether that was a good use of their resources rather than fighting the Allies.
No. You can't do that. You might as well say that it would have been "more efficient" not to start the war in the first place. You might as well say it would have been "more efficient" to be Polynesians instead of Germans.
You can only compare what they did with previous attempts to do what they did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 3:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 5:28 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 32 of 95 (727017)
05-14-2014 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
05-14-2014 3:26 PM


Re: destination/s
No. You can't do that. You might as well say that it would have been "more efficient" not to start the war in the first place.
Well, yes. I might as well say that. Moreover I can and I will.
Michael Q. Furterburger inherited his father's office supply business. Instead of spending his time on reducing overheads or increasing sales or anything else that might have made his company more profitable, he decided instead to visit each one of his clients personally and hit them in the face with a fish. Was that an efficient use of his time? I say "no", because he drove down his profits. Would you say "yes" because he successfully hit a lot of people with a fish?
You can only compare what they did with previous attempts to do what they did.
"What they did"? THEY LOST.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 05-14-2014 3:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 05-15-2014 11:46 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 95 (727034)
05-14-2014 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 3:16 PM


Re: destination/s
They killed a lot of Jews, but we would judge their efficiency by how many got away
We might do it that if we had any respect or grudging admiration for the ability to achieve the outcome. We might instead recoil from a description of the murder of millions and judge the result on a horror scale.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 3:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 95 (727081)
05-15-2014 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 5:28 PM


Re: destination/s
Dr Adequate writes:
THEY LOST.
They killed six million Jews. They considered it an incomplete victory.
They had killing factories. They stole their victims' shoes, their clothing, their hair, their teeth. When, in the course of human history, have their cost-recovery efforts ever been matched?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 5:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 12:21 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 35 of 95 (727086)
05-15-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
05-15-2014 11:46 AM


Re: destination/s
They killed six million Jews. They considered it an incomplete victory.
They suffered a crushing defeat. Just sayin'.
They had killing factories. They stole their victims' shoes, their clothing, their hair, their teeth. When, in the course of human history, have their cost-recovery efforts ever been matched?
Well, in the first place, did they in fact get their money back? How much did the Nazis make on second-hand footwear? This is one of the things that the Nazis did to convince themselves that they were being efficient, but do we have figures on the success of their used-shoe-shops? How much did they get for second-hand Jewish teeth? In the second place, it is usual, when carrying out a pogrom, to steal the goods of one's victims. Who knows --- not I, not you --- whether it was cheaper per murdered Jew to let loose a bunch of Cossacks on horseback. How much did the Rwandan genocide cost the Rwandan government? Did they have to build camps and railroad tracks? And in the third place, we may still question, as I have questioned, whether it was efficient to do the thing at all.
Discussing this is making me very depressed. To cheer us all up, here's the story of Goering's brother Albert.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 05-15-2014 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 05-15-2014 12:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 40 by MFFJM2, posted 05-27-2014 9:03 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 95 (727088)
05-15-2014 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
05-15-2014 12:21 PM


Re: destination/s
Dr Adequate writes:
Discussing this is making me very depressed.
I find the Holocaust itself depressing, and the fact that the perpetrators tried so hard to be efficient.
I find discussing it slightly cathartic and I find your comments fairly disgusting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 12:21 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 1:36 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 37 of 95 (727103)
05-15-2014 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
05-15-2014 12:28 PM


Re: destination/s
I find the Holocaust itself depressing, and the fact that the perpetrators tried so hard to be efficient.
Of course they thought they were doing the right thing, operationally and indeed morally. People rarely think of themselves that they're a bunch of slapstick buffoons and also the epitome of evil to boot. You say the Nazis tried to be efficient? Yeah, they also tried to be the good guys. And they tried to win WWII. They failed in all these aims because of being dumbass fuckwits who didn't know a good idea from a bad one, or right from wrong.
I find discussing it slightly cathartic and I find your comments fairly disgusting.
I am sorry that I've disgusted you by suggesting that the Nazis were, amongst their other obvious mental defects, also halfwitted incompetents. It was not my intention to disgust you, and if saying so has that effect on you I shall press the point no further. I shall however continue privately to think that the Nazis were not all that bright.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 05-15-2014 12:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 05-15-2014 1:57 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 95 (727112)
05-15-2014 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
05-15-2014 1:36 PM


Re: destination/s
Dr Adequate writes:
They failed in all these aims....
Six million was, tragically, a huge success.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 1:36 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 2:30 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 95 (727122)
05-15-2014 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
05-15-2014 1:57 PM


Re: destination/s
I could argue that killing six million Jews was not, in fact, a "huge success". But apparently not without disgusting you. I'm gonna let this one go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 05-15-2014 1:57 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3206 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 40 of 95 (728340)
05-27-2014 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
05-15-2014 12:21 PM


Re: destination/s
If you're going to consider the effects of the Holocaust you should consider all of the effects. WWII was not part of the Holocaust and was ancillary to it. The Nazis stole the property of displaced Jews, whether they were sent to concentration camps or simply decided to emigrate. This property included art, jewels, money in bank accounts, cars, real estate, and raw materials. It is estimated that $18 billion in Jewish property was confiscated (stolen) by the Nazis, and most of it was never returned after the war, as the owners were dead. This property funded at least one third of the German war effort.
"Prof Ullmann said, "Conservatively, their money financed at least 30 per cent of the German war effort." Christine Kuller of the University of Munich, who also worked on the study, said tax offices built whole hierarchies of bureaucrats "who discovered dwellings and bank accounts and emptied them". The bureaucrats then disposed of all traces of those who disappeared in the extermination camps."
Yes, the Nazis were extremely efficient, and ultimately unsuccessful, but their lack of success doesn't mean they weren't also efficient.
Edited by MFFJM2, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-15-2014 12:21 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 05-27-2014 9:59 AM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 41 of 95 (728346)
05-27-2014 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by MFFJM2
05-27-2014 9:03 AM


Re: destination/s
Here is an article criticizing idea of Nazi efficiency.
The Myth of Nazi “Efficiency” | Coffee Cup History

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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 Message 40 by MFFJM2, posted 05-27-2014 9:03 AM MFFJM2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 05-27-2014 12:25 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 95 (728371)
05-27-2014 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Theodoric
05-27-2014 9:59 AM


Re: destination/s
Theodoric writes:
Here is an article criticizing idea of Nazi efficiency.
Before we go rushing off on a tangent about "Nazi efficiencey", let's recap the statement that started the deflection:
quote:
What's really frightening about the Holocaust, for example, is the cold, calculating efficiency with which it was done. Message 27
I was referring to the efficiency with which millions of people were killed and robbed. Whether they were efficient in any other area is irrelevant to my statement.

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Replies to this message:
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MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3206 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 43 of 95 (728376)
05-27-2014 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
05-27-2014 12:25 PM


Re: destination/s
Exactly. The article is specifically about the economic inefficiency of Germany under the Nazi regime. The Nazi final solution was not formally decided until the Wannsee Conference. Given the requirement that most of the atrocities had to be hidden from view and that the mechanism used to kill millions was ad hoc, the Nazi death machine was extremely efficient.
Edited by MFFJM2, : sp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 05-27-2014 12:25 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 1:54 PM MFFJM2 has replied
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-27-2014 3:51 PM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 95 (728377)
05-27-2014 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by MFFJM2
05-27-2014 1:24 PM


Re: destination/s
Not just to pick on your post, but it is currently the last post in this thread taking the position that the Nazi's were efficient.
One might note that killing and taking people's stuff in a situation in which you need fear no reprisal from the local government is easilly going to be profitable. So if you must insist on describing the result of huge benefits as being efficient, then we should at least consider the inputs and outputs and then the end result of having your country reduced to ruble and having to pay back your ill gotten gains whenever the rest of the world can manage to find them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by MFFJM2, posted 05-27-2014 1:24 PM MFFJM2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by MFFJM2, posted 05-27-2014 2:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3206 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 45 of 95 (728378)
05-27-2014 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NoNukes
05-27-2014 1:54 PM


Re: destination/s
Once again, the description of efficiency was in regard to the Holocaust, not in every other area of Nazi endeavor. In 1933 there were approximately 3 million Jews living in Poland, and by 1945 there were only 45,000. There were nearly 1/2 million Jews living in Germany in the same year, and by 1945 only 37,000. In Greece there were 100,000 Jews prior to the war, and by its end only 7,000. In the former Yugoslavia from 70,000 to 3,500. The position I am defending is not that the Nazi's were efficient in everything they did. Far from it, but in conducting their final solution they were mercilessly efficient, far beyond anything ever seen before.
I was not describing anything except what recent studies have shown about how much property was stolen from displaced and murdered Jews, and subsequently used in the German war effort. The population figures on European Jewry from the Holocaust shows the effectiveness of the Nazi attempt at a final solution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 1:54 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by 1.61803, posted 05-27-2014 3:01 PM MFFJM2 has not replied
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 3:08 PM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
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