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Author Topic:   The Chicken And Egg Problem, this problem refers to all species
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 43 (207216)
05-11-2005 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by zephyr
05-11-2005 2:19 PM


Re: Eggs before chickens if taken literally
Given that the first egg-layers lived in water, and that the first egg was laid before predators had developed egg-eating abilities and behavior (what good would it have been till then?), even a thin mucous membrane around one's developing offspring would have been an advantage.
Still is all that's needed in most cases. In fact, I'd guess that the most common egg scenario even today is to simply take an unfertilized egg and toss it out unprotected into the environment. Throw them little eggs out there and hope a sperm drifts close by before the Whale Shark (of the animal fish whale big critter eating small critter kind) swims through.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by zephyr, posted 05-11-2005 2:19 PM zephyr has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 17 of 43 (207240)
05-11-2005 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
05-11-2005 4:59 PM


.
Yay, magic bullet!
I was just thinking about that same concept a second ago. Anyway, great post. How ya been? Wife still in school?
(I'm sure you can get away with one off-topic post before the shutdown takes place)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 05-11-2005 4:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Nitai, posted 05-11-2005 10:54 PM zephyr has replied
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 05-13-2005 9:32 AM zephyr has replied

  
Nitai
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 43 (207256)
05-11-2005 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by zephyr
05-11-2005 9:05 PM


Re: .
So, in the very beginning there was no any membrane and thus the poor living entity would just dissolve in the water?
This message has been edited by Nitai, 05-11-2005 10:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by zephyr, posted 05-11-2005 9:05 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by zephyr, posted 05-11-2005 11:25 PM Nitai has replied
 Message 21 by NosyNed, posted 05-12-2005 12:55 AM Nitai has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 19 of 43 (207266)
05-11-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Nitai
05-11-2005 10:54 PM


Re: .
Have you ever seen a frog egg?
The tadpole inside swims almost like it's in the pond already. It doesn't dissolve. It has two advantages: it's better fed and it's ever-so-slightly safer inside. It doesn't need the membrane to keep its insides from falling out... it just gets a better chance at life by staying in there for a while.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Nitai, posted 05-11-2005 10:54 PM Nitai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Nitai, posted 05-12-2005 12:35 AM zephyr has replied

  
Nitai
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 43 (207275)
05-12-2005 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by zephyr
05-11-2005 11:25 PM


So, what would be the advantage of tadpole or any similar type of living entity to develop first a kind of membrane and then egg-shell?
Moreover, as long as you don't give me the exact detailed scheme of genetic transformations that show the evolution and then demostrate this in the laboratory I don't see any reason to accept your wishful hypothesis based on comparition of similarities of different species.
Other problem with your example is that tadpole is already quite developed and so doesn't need any shell. And if you see the substance of an egg, take it out and put it in the water - no any chicken will develop in that way and you will be hungry too. What a big loss.
This message has been edited by Nitai, 05-12-2005 12:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by zephyr, posted 05-11-2005 11:25 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by NosyNed, posted 05-12-2005 1:04 AM Nitai has not replied
 Message 23 by lfen, posted 05-12-2005 1:14 AM Nitai has not replied
 Message 24 by zephyr, posted 05-12-2005 9:57 AM Nitai has replied
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 05-13-2005 9:36 AM Nitai has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 21 of 43 (207276)
05-12-2005 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Nitai
05-11-2005 10:54 PM


Water soluable??
So, in the very beginning there was no any membrane and thus the poor living entity would just dissolve in the water?
Why on earth would you say that? The embryos of many creatures develop in what is mostly water. Living things are not water soluable in general. They do have to manage the balance between water inside cells and outside but that has nothing to do with a membrane around the embryo as a whole.
You might do well to be less firm in your utterances when you apparently know little about the subject at hand.

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 22 of 43 (207280)
05-12-2005 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Nitai
05-12-2005 12:35 AM


Development of a tadpole
So, what would be the advantage of tadpole or any similar type of living entity to develop first a kind of membrane and then egg-shell?
Do you happen to know one big difference between the reptiles and amphibians? That is part of the answer to the above. Initially it is necessary that a food supply be kept with the developing embryo.
Moreover, as long as you don't give me the exact detailed scheme of genetic transformations that show the evolution and then demostrate this in the laboratory I don't see any reason to accept your wishful hypothesis based on comparition of similarities of different species
A very strong hint that you have made up your mind and are not going to listen to what you are told. Could you explain why someone should take the time to answer your questions? If you will only accept information that is very unlikely to be available why bother discussing things here?
Since there are extant animals with various stages of development of eggs we can, in some sense, "see" the development.
Other problem with your example is that tadpole is already quite developed and so doesn't need any shell. And if you see the substance of an egg, take it out and put it in the water - no any chicken will develop in that way and you will be hungry too. What a big loss.
Don't try to be funny until you have developed a bit of credibility here. Just what does the comment about the "substance of an egg" have to do with anything?
You do know that the tadpole is a late stage in the gestation don't you? It doesn't start out that way.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 05-12-2005 01:05 AM

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 23 of 43 (207284)
05-12-2005 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Nitai
05-12-2005 12:35 AM


Other problem with your example is that tadpole is already quite developed and so doesn't need any shell. And if you see the substance of an egg, take it out and put it in the water - no any chicken will develop in that way and you will be hungry too. What a big loss.
Your ignorance is going to require more education than you can realistically provoke here. Why not take an introductory course in biology or embryology? At least get some introductory books on the subject and try to educate yourself. Your "smart" remarks just reveal how incredibly ignorant you are in this subject. No crime in that but take some hours to learn something about what you speak.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 24 of 43 (207367)
05-12-2005 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Nitai
05-12-2005 12:35 AM


So, what would be the advantage of tadpole or any similar type of living entity to develop first a kind of membrane and then egg-shell?
Safety during its early development. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Moreover, as long as you don't give me the exact detailed scheme of genetic transformations that show the evolution and then demostrate this in the laboratory I don't see any reason to accept your wishful hypothesis based on comparition of similarities of different species.
You may not realize it, but that's a ridiculous statement. If you required that level of confirmation for every idea presented to you, you would believe absolutely nothing. Chances are that you've already accepted some alternative based on very little evidence. So, why are you here? Your mind is made up despite your stunning lack of information, and your demands cannot and will not be met, nor are you going to persuade anyone (not even a marginally informed layman like me) with your total lack of expertise in biology. Seems you're wasting your time.
By the way, I'm not wishing; I'm interpolating. Look it up in the dictionary.
Other problem with your example is that tadpole is already quite developed and so doesn't need any shell. And if you see the substance of an egg, take it out and put it in the water - no any chicken will develop in that way and you will be hungry too. What a big loss.
I'm not sure what your point is. Of course, egg yolk would disperse if placed in open water. However, chickens don't lay shell-free eggs in the water, so it's not a problem. You have enough difficulties already... let's deal with them first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Nitai, posted 05-12-2005 12:35 AM Nitai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Nitai, posted 05-12-2005 10:24 AM zephyr has replied

  
Nitai
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 43 (207376)
05-12-2005 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by zephyr
05-12-2005 9:57 AM


1) You begin insulting here, that's argument for nothing.
2) After demonstrating your theory I will consider to accept it. Without demonstration, simulating evolution everything is incomplete. Just like the half hen logic? Did you heard about it?
A man who had a hen was becoming rich selling the eggs but he was thinking that the hen eats up too much money. So he cut the hen's head desiring to have only the eggs. And what was the result?
Whatever will be your answer this was my last post on this topic.
You can consider me to be defeated.
This message has been edited by Nitai, 05-12-2005 10:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by zephyr, posted 05-12-2005 9:57 AM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by zephyr, posted 05-12-2005 11:11 AM Nitai has not replied
 Message 27 by jar, posted 05-12-2005 11:26 AM Nitai has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 26 of 43 (207398)
05-12-2005 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Nitai
05-12-2005 10:24 AM


I'm sorry if I was rude. Please forgive me.
Honestly, I'm not here to "win" any arguments, and it gives me no pleasure that you say this is your last post. I only wanted to shake up your perspective. The facts as I see them are these: you don't know very much about bio/evo theory, you have major misconceptions, and you make great demands that are impossible to meet. You also seem to have a double standard for evidence, though this is mainly a guess because I'm not sure what claims you have actually accepted. I was only trying to help you see these facts. The finer points of egg development are beyond both of us, IMHO, as are many other things. Fortunately, this place is full of more educated folks in just about every area of science, and they are generally happy to instruct the willing. That's why I'm here. Why are you here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Nitai, posted 05-12-2005 10:24 AM Nitai has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 43 (207403)
05-12-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Nitai
05-12-2005 10:24 AM


If you want to go a little further ...
then you might want to research the spawning habits of many ocean fish and critters (particularly ones like coral).
The most common egg laying tactic if you count the number of eggs, is to simply release the eggs into the water. The male and female of the species don't mate individually, but rather as a group. Egg and sperm are just thrown out, let free, cast into the waves.
There's no protection for the eggs, none for the sperm, no inclosed gestation, just random mixing.
It's well worth looking into.
Fish eating in a cloud of coral spawn

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Nitai, posted 05-12-2005 10:24 AM Nitai has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 43 (207710)
05-13-2005 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by zephyr
05-11-2005 9:05 PM


How ya been? Wife still in school?
Yup, just finishing up finals week. Next week is the start of field experiment season. I've been hired by her lab to assist with the experiments, so I'm like a junior scientist now. We had an apartment fire so we're about to move into our new place, once the recovery company finishes cleaning our possessions. All courtesy of renter's insurance. (If you rent, get it. No excuses.)
Which explains the big gaps in my posting - I have to come onto campus to use the internet and I'm out in the field about 10 hours every day, so I don't often get the chance. (Rainy today so no field work. Woot!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by zephyr, posted 05-11-2005 9:05 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 43 (207712)
05-13-2005 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Nitai
05-12-2005 12:35 AM


Moreover, as long as you don't give me the exact detailed scheme of genetic transformations that show the evolution and then demostrate this in the laboratory I don't see any reason to accept your wishful hypothesis based on comparition of similarities of different species.
Fair enough, but until you can hand us a videotape of God caught in the act of creating worlds and species ex nihilo, I don't see any reason why we should take your wishful thinking any more seriously.
Of course, the thing is, you didn't ask us how it happened - you told us that it was impossible for it to happen. Therefore the only burden of proof we need meet is to devise any scenario where it could happen. If you want to know for sure how it did happen, that's a different question. We've more than met the burden of proof necessary to destroy your claim; no surprise to find you moving the goalposts as a result.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Nitai, posted 05-12-2005 12:35 AM Nitai has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nitai
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 43 (207764)
05-13-2005 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
05-13-2005 9:36 AM


There is no such thing like ex-nihilo.
That's a Christian myth.
Nor there was a small chunk becoming bigger and bigger.
Thet's the Darwinistic myth.
Both are irrational big bluffs.
For few days I have no time. Bye.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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