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Author | Topic: Questions based on a plain and simple reading of the US Constitution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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quote: Does a sweep where people are asked to provide evidence they are in the US legally violate this clause unless supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the names of the people or things to be seized?
quote: Does this clause require that anyone said to be committing the crime of being in the US illegally must be given full due process and should they lose any property because of deportation that the US Federal Government must provide just compensation?
quote: Does this require that anyone accused of the crime of being in the US illegally must be given a speedy and public trial in the State where they are accused and are entitled to Assistance of Counsel for defense?
quote: If deportation should cause damage greater than $20.00 can a civil trial by jury be demanded?
quote: Are not immigrants, even if illegal, still people?
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3
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The U.S. Constitution does not apply to non U.S. citizens. It does not apply in any way until a persons citizenship is confirmed.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
marc writes: The U.S. Constitution does not apply to non U.S. citizens. It does not apply in any way until a persons citizenship is confirmed. Please provide the link to the part of the US Constitution that states that?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
You can say it all you want but it isn't true. In fact the opposite is true.
Can you state any court case that affirms what you claim?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Please provide the link to the part of the US Constitution that states that? quote: This refers only to the U.S. It doesn't say "we the people of the world", or "ordain and establish this Constitution for the world". It really goes without saying that it's none of the U.S. business what goes on in other countries with those countries' citizens, provided there's no generally agreed upon threat to the U.S. mainland or it's citizens. Most would agree that non-U.S. citizens should not be allowed to vote in U.S. elections, and most would also agree that even an illegal immigrant should not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment within the U.S. More and more as transportation and communications make the world smaller and smaller, and as the political left's comprehension of the Constitution and intent of the framers gets fuzzier and fuzzier, it's not surprising that some would wonder if the Fourth Amendment, OBVIOUSLY intended only for citizens, would apply to illegal immigrants. It's not a simple discussion if one has to overcome all the re-writing of history that has been going on in the Democrat party for several years now.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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It burns. The preamble just outlines who is the authority behind the Constitution are the authority. The people who wrote the Constitution and the people that were the authority were not citizens of the USA.
The preamble says nothing about who ahs rights or what they are. All it does explain the purpose and the authority behind it. The United States referenced in your highlight is not the United States of America. You are equivocating. It could not be because the political entity USA did not exist yet. What it referred to is the people of the individual states united together.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Marc is right about what the preamble implies, who it covers. Sometimes I wonder how all the revisionists manage not to choke to death on the sophistries required to rationalize it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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You will note that Marc is being quite thoroughly dishonest. Carefully avoiding providing support for his original claim (and implicitly going back on it), raising the issue of foreign governments as a strawman and trying to frame the issue as dealing solely with illegal immigrants (when his original claim would include legal immigrants and Jar's OP dealt mainly with people suspected or accused of being illegal immigrants who should surely benefit from the principle of "innocent until proven guilty")
As for you - defending rights granted by the Constituion is in no way revisionism. Your dislike for the actual Constitution does not change it in any way or devalue its legal standing. Lying rants will not avail you.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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marc writes: Most would agree that non-U.S. citizens should not be allowed to vote in U.S. elections, and most would also agree that even an illegal immigrant should not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment within the U.S. And again, what does that have to do with any of the parts of the US Constitution I posted?
marc writes: More and more as transportation and communications make the world smaller and smaller, and as the political left's comprehension of the Constitution and intent of the framers gets fuzzier and fuzzier, it's not surprising that some would wonder if the Fourth Amendment, OBVIOUSLY intended only for citizens, would apply to illegal immigrants. Again, I posted the text of the IV Amendment. Where in it does it say or even imply that it applies only to citizens? In addition, where is there anything in Amendments IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX and X that might indicate they do not apply to anyone within the borders or the US?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Just because he says so and you agree does not make it true. How about you present some kind of legal support for this argument. Or better yet actually address the argument I made. Show me how my points are wrong or my argument is fallacious.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3
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This is a wake-up call for me, I didn't know it was getting this bad in the U.S. - that even liberals are so out of touch with reality to believe that the U.S. is responsible, and bears the burden, of applying it's constitution and principles to foreigners, any foreigner that seeks them, or gets near the U.S. mainland. Even when the U.S. government knows nothing about them, or what their intentions are.
Maybe there could be a new constitutional amendment; When the U.S. national debt surpasses $20 trillion, it's time to re-think all the money and attention we lavish on illegal immigrants as we bend over backwards to grant them all U.S. constitutional guarantees.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
This is fascinating, do you believe that non-U.S. citizens who never get near the U.S. and have no interest or desire to, also have U.S. constitutional rights? That.....everyone everywhere has the right to keep and bear arms? Does the U.S. government have to enforce that?
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
And again, what does that have to do with any of the parts of the US Constitution I posted? (this place is an exercise in word processing) I was generalizing what parts of the constitution could be considered for a not-yet-vetted immigrant. And there aren't many.
Again, I posted the text of the IV Amendment. Where in it does it say or even imply that it applies only to citizens? quote: "Persons, houses, papers, effects" - within the U.S. maybe?? Warrants, places, things, within the U.S. maybe? You don't see an implication that it was referring to citizens? And ~I'm~ accused of not being honest. It is beyond amazing.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: People in the U.S. would include non-citizens in the U.S. Why would it be odd for the Amendment to cover them, the houses they rent or own, or their papers or effects ? It is indeed amazing that anybody would be unable to realise that.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Again, where does it mention that those rights are reserved for citizens?
As you point out, the US Constitution applies to people within the borders of the US. That would include illegal immigrants within the borders of the US.
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