Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Question about "kinds"
Flatland
Junior Member (Idle past 4445 days)
Posts: 10
Joined: 01-30-2010


Message 1 of 33 (559525)
05-10-2010 3:34 AM


Since creationists love to claim that animals were created after their kind I have a very simple question. How do you determine which animals are part of which kind? For example, how do know that horses, zebras and donkeys are part of the same kind? Are cats and dogs the same kind? What about whales and cows? And how do you know that?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 5:34 AM Flatland has not replied
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2010 5:59 AM Flatland has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 33 (559531)
05-10-2010 5:16 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Question about "kinds" thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 3 of 33 (559533)
05-10-2010 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Flatland
05-10-2010 3:34 AM


soley on the genesis account, the 'kinds' were capable of reproducing together.
So, based purely on that, 'kinds' are those that can reproduce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Flatland, posted 05-10-2010 3:34 AM Flatland has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Huntard, posted 05-10-2010 5:50 AM Peg has replied
 Message 10 by Modulous, posted 05-10-2010 8:12 AM Peg has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 4 of 33 (559535)
05-10-2010 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
05-10-2010 5:34 AM


Peg writes:
soley on the genesis account, the 'kinds' were capable of reproducing together.
So, based purely on that, 'kinds' are those that can reproduce.
But we already went over that, Peg. That can't be the definition of kind, for then there would not be enough room on the Ark. Further, this means that when gettin to ring species, we run into a problem.
If there are ring species A, B, and C, then A would be able to reproduce with B, making them the same kind, B, would be able to reproduce with A and C making them the same kind, Yet A would not be able to reproduce with C making them a different kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 5:34 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 6:27 AM Huntard has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 5 of 33 (559536)
05-10-2010 5:51 AM


Oh dear. Another "kind" thread. Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others) went 425 posts long, still without a working definition. Maybe now after the long hiatus, our local creo's have done some better detective work to provide us with one.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"The Bible was written to show us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go" -Galileao

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 33 (559537)
05-10-2010 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Flatland
05-10-2010 3:34 AM


The problem is that there is NO scientific test to tell if animals DO belong to different "kinds". None.
The reason for that is simple. Kinds are unrelated by definition. The point of proposing "kinds" is to deny many relationships of common descent - so the proponents of "kinds" have to reject any evidence supporting those relationships, even though it is clearly relevant. But this leaves them with no test at all.
The whole idea is religious, not scientific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Flatland, posted 05-10-2010 3:34 AM Flatland has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 7 of 33 (559540)
05-10-2010 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Huntard
05-10-2010 5:50 AM


Huntard writes:
But we already went over that, Peg. That can't be the definition of kind, for then there would not be enough room on the Ark. Further, this means that when gettin to ring species, we run into a problem.
i dont really feel like getting into this one again...i just wanted to provide the simple answer to what genesis says a kind is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Huntard, posted 05-10-2010 5:50 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Huntard, posted 05-10-2010 6:34 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2010 7:20 AM Peg has replied
 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 05-10-2010 10:10 PM Peg has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 8 of 33 (559541)
05-10-2010 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
05-10-2010 6:27 AM


Peg writes:
i dont really feel like getting into this one again...i just wanted to provide the simple answer to what genesis says a kind is.
Well, then Genesis is wrong. It can't be the definition of kind, as has been shown via the ring species, it leads to a paradox.
So, as of yet, no useful definition of kind has been produced for the OP.
Hey, OP, I'll let you in on a secret, as you can see from the answers you've gotten so far, there isn't a way to tell which species belongs to which kind, creationists just make shit up as they go along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 6:27 AM Peg has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 33 (559544)
05-10-2010 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
05-10-2010 6:27 AM


Just a clarification?
Hi Peg,
...i just wanted to provide the simple answer to what genesis says a kind is.
Does genesis say what a kind is?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 6:27 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 8:48 PM RAZD has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 10 of 33 (559547)
05-10-2010 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
05-10-2010 5:34 AM


soley on the genesis account, the 'kinds' were capable of reproducing together.
I missed that part, where was it again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 5:34 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 33 (559631)
05-10-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
05-10-2010 7:20 AM


Re: Just a clarification?
RAZD writes:
Does genesis say what a kind is?
no it doest say....it only says according to its kind (genus).
Hebrew word is leminoh', the greek word is genos and the Latin is genus.
Its believed to mean a family kind that can reproduce because in Gen 1:21 it says
And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good. 22With that God blessed them, saying: Be fruitful and become many..."
being fruitful means to reproduce offspring.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2010 7:20 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 05-10-2010 8:52 PM Peg has replied
 Message 21 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2010 7:42 AM Peg has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 12 of 33 (559633)
05-10-2010 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
05-10-2010 8:48 PM


Re: Just a clarification?
Is it genus or family?
Those terms have good definitions in science, and are not interchangeable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 8:48 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 10:07 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 33 (559648)
05-10-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
05-10-2010 8:52 PM


Re: Just a clarification?
Coyote writes:
Is it genus or family?
Those terms have good definitions in science, and are not interchangeable.
the ancient language says they are both, but you should keep in mind that languages change over time and the scientific definition of today is not the same as what the hebrews had in mind. The simple definition of genus back then was that if two animals could breed, they were the same kind/family/genus. If they cannot breed, then they are not the same kind/family/genus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 05-10-2010 8:52 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Iblis, posted 05-10-2010 10:15 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 16 by bluescat48, posted 05-10-2010 11:02 PM Peg has replied
 Message 22 by misha, posted 05-11-2010 8:42 AM Peg has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 14 of 33 (559649)
05-10-2010 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
05-10-2010 6:27 AM


14And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
15Every raven after his kind;
16And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
Leviticus 11 adds the above. I really don't think that there are multiple genera of kites and ravens, at least. That suggests that kind = species.
Oh, and hello, new person!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 6:27 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 05-11-2010 3:27 AM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 19 by aiki, posted 05-11-2010 4:13 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 15 of 33 (559650)
05-10-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
05-10-2010 10:07 PM


Kinds = Clades
These threads are fun to watch ...
Let me just plant the flag of reason again, while I'm thinking of it, and point out that the thing in science that best corresponds to the Biblical concept of "kinds" is the clade.
Clade - Wikipedia
Regardless of what changes they go through over time, all creatures reproduce after their clade. All birds are dinosaurs, no rodents are birds; sugar gliders are not bats, but whales are fish (as are we.)
Have fun!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 10:07 PM Peg has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024