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Author Topic:   Existence
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1111 of 1229 (630697)
08-27-2011 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1110 by nlerd
08-26-2011 10:06 PM


As we go further back in time, further north if you will, we reach a point where our two greatest and most productive theories (General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory) start throwing infinities at us. In math that's fine but in cosmology it means the theories have gone bonkers, gotten drunk, fell in the gutter and are broken. This area of our ignorance is called the singularity. It is about 10-43 seconds after whatever happened to cause this mess happened. 10-43 seconds this side of the north pole. Earlier than that we cannot tell what was going on so we cannot tell how this whole thing started. We are stuck just short of the north pole.
The big push in cosmology is to find something called Quantum Gravity which is kind of a marriage between GR and QFT. The hope is this new theory will help us pierce the singularity and get some idea what started the universe. There is some speculation that QG might, though no one knows how, be able to look at conditions preceding the start of the universe. Kind of what you were speculating about going "somewhere" past the north pole.
For right now, however, without Quantum Gravity or something like it to guide us, we are stuck at 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 second this side of the north pole and can't go any further. And speculations of what is there and what might be "beyond" there are certainly fun, but, ultimately, useless.
Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1110 by nlerd, posted 08-26-2011 10:06 PM nlerd has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1112 of 1229 (630830)
08-28-2011 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1108 by nlerd
08-26-2011 8:52 PM


I was wondering if maybe there is some way to get past that barrier like how we can "go past" the North Pole in a sense by traveling through space to go to an entirely different globe. By which I don't necessarily mean go to another universe, unless that is what would be the result
Even if you could cheat in such a way, the direction to that "place" would not be north of the north pole. North is only defined on the surface of the glob.
Similarly, if we are outside of space-time because we have found some new dimension along which to move, in what sense could our new found location represent "before" or "after"? None that I can see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by nlerd, posted 08-26-2011 8:52 PM nlerd has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2011 11:03 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 1113 of 1229 (630924)
08-29-2011 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1112 by NoNukes
08-28-2011 10:29 AM


Big Bounce
Even if you could cheat in such a way, the direction to that "place" would not be north of the north pole. North is only defined on the surface of the glob.
If you had another globe with its south pole tangential to the north pole, you might be able to still go north...
Like at point 'C' here:
This would be a cyclic model of the universe with the Big Bang being the result of the previous universe's Big Crunch... sometimes refered to as the Big Bounce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1112 by NoNukes, posted 08-28-2011 10:29 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1114 of 1229 (631075)
08-30-2011 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1092 by Taq
08-22-2011 2:10 PM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
At every moment the photons from the pen laser are directly between the driver/pen laser and the tracks.
According to your diagram the driver would have to leave the interior of the car and be positioned directly over the laser pen, to be able to view what you have drawn.
If I remember correctly the car is traveling at 0.5 c on a track in a vacuum.
How does the driver survive in a vacuum?
Your diagram does not match what reality would be.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1092 by Taq, posted 08-22-2011 2:10 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1116 by Panda, posted 08-30-2011 9:11 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 1122 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2011 11:05 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1115 of 1229 (631076)
08-30-2011 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1096 by Taq
08-22-2011 3:35 PM


Re: NoNukes on Inertial Reference Frames
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Everything. The observer is the one who plots the point of emission with the point of detection within their frame of reference. The distance between those two points determines how much time it takes for the light to move from the point of emission to the point of detection within that frame of reference.
So if there is no observer light can not travel at c in a vacuum?
If there was no humans alive on earth to observe the light from the sun would that light still be proprogated at c?
I have a sneaky feeling if there was no life forms on Earth the light from the sun would still travel at the same speed of c we observe it to travel at today.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by Taq, posted 08-22-2011 3:35 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1140 by Taq, posted 08-30-2011 7:08 PM ICANT has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 1116 of 1229 (631077)
08-30-2011 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1114 by ICANT
08-30-2011 8:58 AM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
ICANT writes:
How does the driver survive in a vacuum?
That is such a dumb question.
It seems you are unable to understand what a thought experiment is and you don't know how astronauts survive in space.
For your sake, I hope you are being disingenuous.

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by ICANT, posted 08-30-2011 8:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1123 by ICANT, posted 08-30-2011 11:06 AM Panda has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1117 of 1229 (631079)
08-30-2011 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1099 by crashfrog
08-25-2011 10:13 AM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
Have you ever ridden a train? Almost everyone who has, has had this experience: you're sitting there in your seat, waiting for the train to depart, and there's a train on the tracks right next to you.
Yes.
But never with a train on a parallel track.
crashfrog writes:
Slowly, you start to see the windows of the other train slowly slide past yours, and you think "oh, finally, we're on our way at last."
So I have never experienced such.
But I have been in a car at a red light and made that observation of cars in other lanes.
But I did not mistake there movement to be my movement.
crashfrog writes:
You even feel the motion of the train under you and you sink into your seat a little deeper,
How would I be able to feel the motion of the train under me?
The train would not be moving.
crashfrog writes:
That is why we say that driver observes the track moving past him;
But the track will move less than the width of a human hair relative to the car in the amount of time the photon takes to reach the detector.
The car will move 2 feet relative to the track in the amount of time the photon takes to reach the detector.
We are talking about the relative speed of one inertial frame to another inertial frame.
crashfrog writes:
Taq's diagram and description of motion is accurate within the reference frame of the driver.
In Taq's fantasy world but not in reality.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2011 10:13 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1142 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2011 11:29 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1118 of 1229 (631081)
08-30-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1102 by DrJones*
08-25-2011 11:05 AM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
Hi Dr,
DrJones* writes:
Did you forget the experiment that you proposed?
No, but it seems you did or did not read it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1102 by DrJones*, posted 08-25-2011 11:05 AM DrJones* has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1119 of 1229 (631086)
08-30-2011 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1103 by Taq
08-25-2011 11:11 AM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Because that's how fast they are moving.
Well actually the tracks are moving less than the width of a human hair while the car moves 2 feet.
Taq writes:
If you are going down the freeway at 65 mph how fast do you see the road signs going by your window? 65 mph.
The road signs are moving at the speed the Earth is moving through our galaxy.
I am going past the signs at 65 mph.
Taq writes:
All frames of reference are equal.
All frames of reference are relative. I don't think that is the same as equal, but I could be wrong.
Taq writes:
The driver reporting the speed of the track as 0.5c is as accurate as someone standing by the tracks reporting 0.5c for the speed of the car
Well the car is the instrument that is moving at 0.5 c relative to the tracks.
The tracks are moving at 1 inch every 6.360593041943805e-6 nanoseconds relative to the car.
The motion of the Earth is discussed at length in Message 837 if you are interested.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1103 by Taq, posted 08-25-2011 11:11 AM Taq has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1120 of 1229 (631087)
08-30-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1104 by Taq
08-26-2011 1:39 PM


Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
ICAN'T believes that the photon will strike the detector in our now infamous "car on the tracks" experiment. Why? Because the laser pen is aimed at the detector when the photon is released. The photon then enters the inertial frame of the detector causing it to strike the detector. So let's follow this a little further just to see how whacky the universe would act if ICAN'T is right.
Thanks for telling me what I believe.
I thought I believed the photon would strike the detector because the car is traveling at 0.5 c relative to the tracks and the pulse was emitted into the vacuum the car was traveling in, at a 90 angle relative to the motion of the car.
Thus the photon would travel in a straight line until it hit something or was scattered.
Taq writes:
Let's launch a spacecraft and send it out to a distance of one light year and take up a stationary position with respect to another spacecraft here in the solar system. Once the spacecraft is in position we send off a radio transmission telling the captain to speed off in a random direction in 10 minutes. We follow this message with a laser beam [3 months later] aimed right at the spacecraft. According to ICAN'T, the photon released by the pen laser should follow the spacecraft wherever it goes, like a heat seeking missile following a jet fighter.
What does your example have to do with a photon traveling 4 feet in a vacuum?
Taq writes:
If our aim is just a little bit off then the photon takes a nice straight path.
The photon will go in a straight line in a vacuum in the direction it is aimed.
But in your case you would have to figure out where the spaceship would be at the moment the photon would intersect with the spaceship and aim at that point in space to be able to hit the spaceship with your aimed photon.
Just like if you want the photon in my car experiment to hit the S instead of the D you would have to mount the laser pen at a 26.57 angle relative to the motion of the car.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by Taq, posted 08-26-2011 1:39 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1139 by Taq, posted 08-30-2011 7:06 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1121 of 1229 (631097)
08-30-2011 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1105 by NoNukes
08-26-2011 3:20 PM


Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
ICANT believes an enclosed space defines reference frame,
No, I believe an enclosed reference frame is an enclosed reference frame not the definition of a reference frame.
NoNukes writes:
so that you can aim light at an object at rest in the enclosed frame, and the light will hit the object.
The reference frame that is enclosed inside the car is a non-inertial reference frame as everything inside the car is acted upon by an unbalanced force.
Also the reference frame that is enclosed inside the car is not a vacuum as the driver could not survive in a vacuum.
NoNukes writes:
So in an ICANT universe, if you were in an enclosed rail car proceeding down the tracks at 0.5 c, then you can aim a laser pen at a chalkboard exactly as if you were in a conventional high school physics classroom.
And it would hit the blackboard at the point aimed as both are in a non-inertial reference frame and are acted upon by an unbalanced force.
NoNukes writes:
But apparently, if you start taking down the sides of the rail car, at some point, light from the laser pen will veer off at at 26.5+ degree angle, landing well behind the point at which the laser is pointed.
Once you remove the sides the photon will not be acted upon by an unbalanced force and therefore will go in a straight line from the point emitted from the laser pen at a 90 angle relative to the motion of the blackboard.
Since the chalkboard is 4 feet from the laser pen which is aimed 6 inches to the right of the rear of the blackboard relative to the direction of travel the blackboard which is traveling at 0.5 c the pulse will miss the blackboard.
The photon does not veer off at a 26.57 angle it goes in a straight line from the point emitted at a 90 angle relative to the motion of the blackboard.
NoNukes writes:
Of course, the above should apply to physical object and not just photons.
Physical objects do take on the motion of the emitter.
Photons do not take on the motion of the emitter.
So no they will not act the same.
NoNukes writes:
So in universe ICANT, when the girl with kaleidoscope eyes is juggling objects on a train car moving at 100 mph, if I open one too many windows in the car thus 'exposing the objects to the earth frame of reference' the objects might well shoot to the back of the train.
No, but the wind would cause the juggler a lot of problems.
Why do you jump from happenings in a vacuum to real world happenings for comparison?
NoNukes writes:
ICANT might complain that I'm wrong, because bowling balls can adopt the motion of the train, while photons cannot. But that complaint would not explain why the light beam in the enclosed moving car apparently did adopt the motion of the enclosed car under ICANT's science.
There would be no vacuum inside the enclosed car or the driver could not surive.
The reference frame inside the car is acted upon by unbalanced forces and therefore is not an inertial frame of reference.
Question:
Can photons take on the motion of the emitter as bowling balls do?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2011 3:20 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1124 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2011 11:10 AM ICANT has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1122 of 1229 (631099)
08-30-2011 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1114 by ICANT
08-30-2011 8:58 AM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
Hi ICANT,
Serious question. Is anything anyone says about inertial reference frames ever going inform you?
Taq writes:
According to your diagram the driver would have to leave the interior of the car and be positioned directly over the laser pen, to be able to view what you have drawn.
Have you ever drawn a graph ICANT? Do you find it necessary to stand directly over each point on your paper as you plot them? Can you plot your location on a map without viewing it from above?
It is not necessary for the driver to view the coordinate system from above in order to determine what the coordinates in the driver's coordinate system actually are. If the driver (or you and I) knows the coordinates of an event, either by visual observation or calculation, then the driver or an equivalent inertial observer at rest in the frame (or you and I) can plot those coordinates on a map of the driver's reference frame. That's what Taq has done, and what you claim is impossible.
I do note that you don't point to any errors in Taq's map.
Your objection is completely ridiculous. We are discussing a thought experiment in which we can know everything that occurs in any reference frame we elect to consider. Your position that we are unable to calculate what happens in one particular reference frame, be it the driver's or some arbitrary reference frame of only academic interest is either completely asinine or deliberately evasive.
ICANT writes:
If I remember correctly the car is traveling at 0.5 c on a track in a vacuum.
How does the driver survive in a vacuum?
Do you actually believe this question represents a reasonable way to avoid discussing events as plotted in the coordinate system of the driver's reference frame?
Consider your own drawings.
How does an observer on the tracks survive in a vacuum to draw events from the track reference frame? Can the NoNukes observer (who is in a vacuum) in your drawing actually see where that laser pen moving at 0.5c actually was when the sensor or detector was hit? Can he view the coordinates from above as you have drawn them?
Yet you don't seem to have any problem drawing events in the track coordinate whenever you choose to do so. Why is that, inconsistent one? Why are vacuum and high speed no impediment to observer NoNukes? I say it is because you are only willing to discuss a single reference frame for each experiment. Discussing two frames risks you having to acknowledge time dilation due to relative motion.
It is irrelevant what the driver can see. Taq's drawing represents what happens in the driver's coordinate system regardless of whether the driver can look down on the experiment. The driver can look down on Taq's paper later.
I think my previous statements about relativity may not have been clear to you. What you are attempting to deny here is physics that was understood over one hundred years before Einstein by Galileo and Newton. We are not yet at the point of even applying special relativity in this experiment, because you are incapable of either understanding or admitting to understanding basic non-relativistic physics.
Given the above, tell me why anyone would believe anything you say about the space-time, ICANT? You are worse than a novice. You have much baggage to overcome before you can even learn any physics, let alone pretend to lecture someone who knows the subject. None of that baggage has any relation to the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by ICANT, posted 08-30-2011 8:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1125 by ICANT, posted 08-30-2011 11:40 AM NoNukes has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1123 of 1229 (631101)
08-30-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1116 by Panda
08-30-2011 9:11 AM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
Hi Panda,
Panda writes:
That is such a dumb question.
It seems you are unable to understand what a thought experiment is and you don't know how astronauts survive in space.
Are you saying reality has nothing to do with a thought experiment?
I thought we were trying to understand exactly what would happen in reality by using a thought experiment, silly me.
Astronauts do not survive in a vacuum. They have spacecraft to travel in and when working on the outside of the spacestation they wear spacesuits.
How long would one of the astronauts survive outside the spacestation without a spacesuit on?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1116 by Panda, posted 08-30-2011 9:11 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1126 by DrJones*, posted 08-30-2011 11:42 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 1129 by Panda, posted 08-30-2011 12:10 PM ICANT has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1124 of 1229 (631102)
08-30-2011 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1121 by ICANT
08-30-2011 11:00 AM


Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
The reference frame that is enclosed inside the car is a non-inertial reference frame as everything inside the car is acted upon by an unbalanced force.
Completely wrong ICANT.
There is no unbalanced force acting on objects in the car. It there were, the car or the objects in the car would be accelerating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by ICANT, posted 08-30-2011 11:00 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1127 by ICANT, posted 08-30-2011 11:44 AM NoNukes has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1125 of 1229 (631107)
08-30-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1122 by NoNukes
08-30-2011 11:05 AM


Re: What ICAN'T can't do
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
How does an observer on the tracks survive in a vacuum to draw events from the track reference frame? Can the NoNukes observer (who is in a vacuum) in your drawing actually see where that laser pen moving at 0.5c actually was when the sensor or detector was hit? Can he view the coordinates from above as you have drawn them?
I never gave any discription of the surroundings of the NoNukes observer. But if NoNukes was standing on the Salt Lake Flats in a vacuum he would need some sort of spacesuit to protect him, or he would not be conscious very long.
The observer NoNukes would not see where the laser pen was when the photon was emitted. He would observe the light to flash when the photon hit the detector.
For the observer NoNukes to be able to see the position of the laser pen when the photon was emitted he would need a super fast camera that could record the entire process and then be able to show it on a screen and slow it down to where the car was only traveling a few miles per hour. The human eye would not even see the car go by.
NoNukes writes:
It is irrelevant what the driver can see.
The driver can either observe the laser pen and the detector or he can not observe the laser pen and the detector.
So for the driver to observe what Taq drew would require the driver to be outside the car above the laser pen.
NoNukes writes:
Taq's drawing represents what happens in the driver's coordinate system regardless of whether the driver can look down on the experiment. The driver can look down on Taq's paper later.
But we were talking about the driver observing the pulse hit the sensor rather than the detector.
We were not talking about what the driver could draw.
NoNukes writes:
I think my previous statements about relativity may not have been clear to you. What you are attempting to deny here is physics that was understood over one hundred years before Einstein by Galileo and Newton.
QUESTIONS:
So will a photon emitted in a vacuum travel in a straight line from the point emitted regardless of the motion of the emitter?
Is an inertial frame one in which the motion of a particle is not subject to an unbalanced force and travels in a straight line at constant speed?
Is a non-inertial frame one in which the motion of a particle is subject to an unbalanced force and does not travel in a straight line?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1122 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2011 11:05 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1128 by Son, posted 08-30-2011 12:07 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 1134 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2011 1:00 PM ICANT has not replied

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