Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity

That response does not really address the issue, on two counts. First, it was the fruit of *knowledge* of good and evil. As the story goes Adam and Eve only gained the knowledge after having eaten the fruit; when they did it, they didn't know it was a bad thing to do. God would then be inflicting punishment for a "secret" rule, or rather on someone who didn't fully understand what rules were.Second, imperfections coming from the fruit just pushes the issue back a step. When God made humans presumably he knew that they would end up eating the fruit later (omniscience biting him in the arse), so he was making perfect beings that would "break" after a period of time. Furthermore he created the tree, the agent of their imperfection, something he might as well not have done. It isn't like the existence of the garden or anything else hinged on the tree existing there. Not quite like that; after all, God won't forgive you unless you ask. God would chop that baby up and feed him to the dogs for eternity if the baby was incapable or unlucky enough to not learn about the "get out of jail free" ritual.Thats the entire point behind evangelism and religious education. After all, if God wouldn't punish people who didn't know about "Jesus etc...", then logically the best way to ensure everyone is saved is to keep the entire thing a secret. If someone doesn't know about it, they can hardly reject it right? Jesus already took the hit, so the only loss would be mortal fame and gratitude (presumably they would learn about it in heaven, so the only loss is the finite time on Earth). Besides, it isn't like arrogance and pride were qualities of Jesus right?Hehe, thats a trick question of course. The Christian god is ridiculously arrogant, prideful, and jealous. Why else create sentient beings with eternal souls strictly for the purpose of eternal fellation of his ego? Why fly into a rage and eternally punish those beings when some of them don't feel like doing that, especially considering he can just make more?

"when they did it, they didn't know it was a bad thing to do."Wrong. God warned them. Satan convinced Eve to eat it anyways appealing to her human nature. God clearly set a rule, and it was broken, they knew is was wrong because God commanded them not to."Second, imperfections coming from the fruit just pushes the issue back a step. When God made humans presumably he knew that they would end up eating the fruit later (omniscience biting him in the arse), so he was making perfect beings that would "break" after a period of time. Furthermore he created the tree, the agent of their imperfection, something he might as well not have done. It isn't like the existence of the garden or anything else hinged on the tree existing there."God knew in advance this would happen. But God created man in his image, giving them the right to choose, be it good or bad. Stopping this from happening would remove this gift. Good question about the requirement of the tree. I'm not really sure why God put it there. I would suppose that without it, we wouldn't be here today. We would all be in the garden of Eden (supposing adam and eve reproduced without eating the fruit). God shows an important aspect of man here though. And since He had knowledge of good and evil, man would almost HAVE to eat it to be completely in his image.Interesting point...never thought of that before."Not quite like that; after all, God won't forgive you unless you ask. God would chop that baby up and feed him to the dogs for eternity if the baby was incapable or unlucky enough to not learn about the "get out of jail free" ritual."HAHAHAHAHA. Well, that would depend on the parents. This is a matter of some debate among christians, but I personally believe that if the parents are christian, and the baby died, it would go to heaven, and vice versa. Others believe all babies go to heaven because they are too young to have the choice.I don't believe in 'fire insurance' either. Acts don't make a christian, but a christian will have acts." If someone doesn't know about it, they can hardly reject it right?"Those who don't know about it go to hell. Accepting Jesus as your lord and saviour, asking for forgiveness, and meaning it is the only way to heaven."The Christian god is ridiculously arrogant, prideful, and jealous."Actually, the Bible portrays God as loving, but vengeful. He teaches to be humble, love your enemies, and if one strikes you on one cheek, to offer the other. And as far as being jealous...what or who does he have to be jealous of? He has infinite power (supposing I'm right of course).Being recognized for hard work and sacrifice is not limited to God. We are created in his image, remember? We want to be appreciated for the things we do as well (sob story).

Genesis clearly states that only by eating the fruit did Adam and Eve know of good and evil. They certainly knew of the rule, but they didn't understand that breaking it would be evil. Or apparently in your view, dying ignorant with Christian parents. If your parents were ignorant then you think the kid is screwed however, which really doesn't say much for God being fair to the kid.After all, you do know that there were thousands of years before Christianity developed, right? Before Christianity was invented *nobody* knew about it, so your theology says they were all damned for not being clairvoyant. He teaches *humans* to be humble; when had God ever turned the other cheek? Any slight against God, even by accident, is punished with extreme violence (often not directed toward the offender). Heck if I know, but he is really *super* jealous. And apparently God doesn't give a crap about our works, so why should we care about his? Eye for an eye and all that stuff, lets have a little reciprocity.

First thing is first, welcome to EvC. Second thing is, if you want to see how we quote you, click on the "peek" button to see how it is done. Ah, but don't forget that by eating the fruit they would know what is right and what is wrong. Remember it was the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, meaning they didn't know what good and evil was because of their innocence.If they ate the fruit BEFORE they knew it was wrong to break a rule, then it's useless to tell them isn't it? And whose fault is it that they resorted to their human nature anyhow? Did Adam and Eve create themselves? Who allowed Satan unmitigated access to the two most naive human beings in history?It all comes back to God no matter how many different ways you look at it. Of course, because it was a set up. God set up the Fall of Man. Not much of a choice when you don't know right from wrong, not much of a choice when you have no concept of repurcussions like death (remember: death entered the world as a RESULT of the Fall of Man), and not much of a choice when it was God who gave them their instincts (natural curiosity). Come on, Columbo. You can piece this together given all the clues. He put it there so humans would fail. He accentuated the tree by appealing to the curiosity he imparted in them and used reverse psychology knowing they'd take the bait. God put it there so they would fail. He wants them to fail so that people will need him. Your God sounds so holy and righteous. That's what Jesus said, but if you'll indulge me in looking in the Old Testament he had babies smashed on rocks just to spite their parents. I don't see turning the other cheek anywhere in that. "I the LORD am a jealous God." Does that ring a bell? It doesn't matter if you can't conceive of it, he flat out admitted to it. Doesn't exactly sound like the picture of perfection, now does it? Why would a perfect being need anything, especially a petty emotion for recognition?

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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

"17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. "God warned them in advance that it was wrong, and that they would DIE. Read your Bible."Or apparently in your view, dying ignorant with Christian parents."So, because my parents hold a certain belief, I`m wrong. In fact, I was raised christian, but turned at around 17. I was a strong evolutionist for 6 years. I debated christians online commonly, attempting to show that belief is not a substitute for evidence. But some christians are not lead around by their tails (few and far between, I`ll admit). I was beaten on many different scientific points. It was my personal decision to accept christianity again, due to the message it teaches compared to other religions."After all, you do know that there were thousands of years before Christianity developed, right?"This is only accurate if you are correct. If my view is correct, then it`s been around since the beginning, when God created man."And apparently God doesn't give a crap about our works, so why should we care about his?"You are right, he doesn`t. Even the worst of the worst can go to heaven, so long as they repent. God looks at the heart, not at a mans works.And you make a good point, why should we care what He has done. We shouldn`t. If The Bible is not true. If it is, we should.

Sin and evil are defined in the Christian context as disobedience to God. Since Adam and Eve had no knowledge of evil, they had no knowledge of disobedience to God. Read *your* Bible.By the way, many atheists don't own Bibles. Adjust your world view accordingly. That does seem to be what you are saying; that the beliefs of the parents will save or damn their children that die before being able to make an informed choice. Then can you provide any explanation why the Native Americans had not heard of Christianity before missionaries arrived? That is the big question of course, but proof for the existence of gods is outside to scope of this thread I believe.Getting back to the topic, "With great power comes great responsibility." A corollary to this might be "With ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility." If God is all-powerful then he is also all-responsible. Sin is therefore God's responsibility.

We've heard people drivel out this nonsense often. But in six years you would have learned something about the subjects you're now being wrong about.

Death entered the world through the Fall of Man, which means death did not exist at the time the caveat was issued. So if you have no concept of what death is then how can that be a deterrent? Secondly, they didn't know it was wrong to do it until the moment they ate of the fruit. That being the case, what sense does it make to say it's wrong to eat of the fruit if they have no concept of right and wrong? Evolutionists and Christians are not antonyms nor are they mutually exclusive. There are plenty of theistic evolutionists. I'm not here to dissuade you from being whatever you want to be. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies and contradictions within the topic of discussion. Obviously not since not even Judaism was around during this time, and when Christianity did come about it was met with hostile force and persecution. If your reason for saying we should care is in the bible then you are giving authority to the bible as the means of knowing God. But if the bible has proven inconsistencies then you have no reason to either trust God, trust that the bible is from God and not fallible man, or not to trust that such a being exists at all.It is entirely possible that God does in fact exist but that mankind has been bastardizing him with books like the bible or the Qu'ran.I would think God is more than a book, because as I see it, many Christians treat the bible itself as an idol. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

"By the way, many atheists don't own Bibles. Adjust your world view accordingly."Phage, if you consider yourself an atheist, then the Bible holds no merit. Debating when sin entered into the world is irrelevant, if you don't believe what the Bible says in the first place.Next, if you don't own a Bible, how can you debate the subject. Would you build a bridge before going to school?Now, even though before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they still understood right from wrong. God warned Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree. If God IS in existance, then why would he warn them if they couldn't decide right from wrong? This supposes that God is not all knowing. If you take the Biblical account to be true, and God is all knowing, then he would have created man in his image, with the ability to choose right from wrong. He sends Adam a very strong message, that if you eat of the tree, you will surely DIE. This clearly shows that Adam does not want to die, as with Eve. If Adam didn't care if he died, then the threat by God would be meaningless."That does seem to be what you are saying; that the beliefs of the parents will save or damn their children that die before being able to make an informed choice."Again, this is a matter of some debate amoung christians. However, I am in the minority here. Let me explain. Many christians believe that before you are old enough to understand who Jesus was, and what he did, you can't make a decision to accept him or reject him. This is what leads most christians to believe that they are still pure in Gods eyes. Myself, I'm in the minority. But the Bible teaches that children are born with the sins of their father. If the father is not saved, then his sins are not forgiven. This is why Jesus (if I'm correct of course) did not have an earthly father. God was his father, who was without sin. He was the only person ever to walk the earth that carried no sin. Just an opinion though."Then can you provide any explanation why the Native Americans had not heard of Christianity before missionaries arrived?"I can try. I wasn't there though. God spread mankind all over the world, and confused their language when man tried to build the tower of Babel. This would explain the different cultures worldwide. Given enough time, each group of people would change, and though some may stay true to their faith in God alone, others would (and more likely would) be angry with God for separating the population. In my personal OPINION, all nations were christian before the tower of Babel was built. However, much like when the commandments were brought down from Mount Siani (I hope thats spelled correct), and the people were worshiping a golden calf, man in general tends to lean towards carnal nature. Putting your hopes, beliefs, and trust in something that cannot be seen or heard is difficult at best. Just my opinion though. I haven't read much about Native American culture and history. I should read up more though."If God is all-powerful then he is also all-responsible. Sin is therefore God's responsibility."Yes and no. You kind of worded that funny. Each sin commited by an individual human is their own. You have the freedom to choose whether or not you will kill your neighbor, or screw your nanny. These are choices we make. Sin was intentional, would be more accurate, since God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree because of Satan.Hmm. Now I'm not sure. God knew it would happen, but Satan (in the form of a serpent) convinced Eve to break Gods commandment to them. Yea, I'm willing to go as far as saying that God knew that sin and death would come into the world before he even created earth. But free will gives each individual the ability to choose whether or not to sin.

"That being the case, what sense does it make to say it's wrong to eat of the fruit if they have no concept of right and wrong? "They didn't eat from the tree of right and wrong, they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why would God threaten them with death, if He knew they didn't know what that means? This makes no sense."There are plenty of theistic evolutionists."Anyone who believes that God and evolution can co-exist email me personally. I will make you feel stupid."Obviously not since not even Judaism was around during this time, and when Christianity did come about it was met with hostile force and persecution."Let me be more specific. I do not consider myself a catholic, penticostal, gentile, jew, or any other labels that separate christians that have conflicting beliefs. Like my dad, I choose to be a Biblical christian. Which means that before our belief system was labelled as christian (during the time of jesus' life on earth), we still held the same values, and understanding as before Christ. The same God still ruled (of course, supposing christianity is true)."If your reason for saying we should care is in the bible then you are giving authority to the bible as the means of knowing God. But if the bible has proven inconsistencies then you have no reason to either trust God, trust that the bible is from God and not fallible man, or not to trust that such a being exists at all."I completely, 100% agree with you. Please, give me some examples of inconsistancies, and I will examine them. If the Bible is from God, then any inconsistancies would prove me wrong. I agree."I would think God is more than a book, because as I see it, many Christians treat the bible itself as an idol. "Anyone who does that is mental. The Bible is the history book of our belief. In order to know where you're going, you have to know where you have been (no pun intended). I personally, don't think that you NEED the Bible to be a christian. You simply have to believe that Jesus was a real person, that he died on the cross for your sins, and want forgiveness for those sins. The Bible is the most valuable tool to understanding what God is, what he expects, and how much he loves you. More valuable than the church these days.

"We've heard people drivel out this nonsense often. But in six years you would have learned something about the subjects you're now being wrong about."Since this forum discusses the Bible, I would expect that I wouldn't have learned much during my evolution years. I'm a christian by default. Christianity teaches the highest moral standards (so of religions, it's more likely to be from God). If a scientific view is proven to be true in the future, I will accept it more than likely. Evolution is poppycock as far as I'm concerned.Now, understand this. Everything I've learned is from books. I'm not a biologist, evolutionist, geologist, chemist, etc. I work in the oilfield for a living. I read information, and form an opinion.But because you don't believe me, let me be specific. I was raised christian until I was 17. I started drinking (my dad does not agree with this), and was kicked out of the house. I probably turned from God because my dad rejected me. I took on a scientific view mostly because I didn't understand how my dad could teach all this 'love' BS, then kick me out. I drank (and consumed many drugs) for 2 years. After I ran out of money and friends, I quit (couldn't afford it), and got a job and a place. I started reading into evolution more, and debated christians because I didn't believe in some invisible entity running the earth like the game of life. Again, as christians bested me on subjects, I turned from evolution. Since no other scientific theory exists (thats plausible to my knowledge), I was forced to concede that life was too complex to have happened by accident, no matter what the timeline.Detailed enough for you pooper?

Not if it affects your actions and conclusions. If I can make you understand how the story of Adam and Eve is an account of an immoral god then perhaps you will examine your beliefs with a critical eye. I think what you will find will dramatically change your outlook.Besides, debate is a joy unto itself. I know about many things, and can reference many more sources, that I don't own books about. The Bible is easily available online, a format that is actually much more accessible given that it can be searched. Now that is the question isn't it, why *would* he do that? If Adam and Eve had no concept of right and wrong, then warning them in that case would either be the actions of an ignorant god, or an immoral one. Lets continue... Nope! This quote shows that you are wrong: "Become as one of us", as in they were not that way before eating the fruit. Since these are the grounds on which God is kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden, then it doesn't make any sense for them to have been created that way.You also cannot argue that they already conceptually knew about sin and it was talking about first-hand experience committing sin, because of that bit about "man is become as one of us". That would mean that God would have first-hand experience committing sin as well, making him unfit to pass judgment on us. Since death only came about as a consequence of sin, and until that point there had been no sin, then how would death have had any meaning at all for Adam? The threat would be meaningless, which is what I was getting at in the first place. Then in your view someone born from a saved father could, if living a sinless life, get to heaven without accepting Jesus. Of course you would argue that living a sinless life is impossible, but I do see how your position puts you in the minority as it weakens the religion's claim to necessity and thus its power base. Except if you are ignorant. A Native American born without knowledge of Christianity has no free will to choose if they will sin or not; they cannot make the choice without knowledge there is a choice to be made. If you claim that God confused the languages and caused the knowledge to be lost, then God is taking away people's free will.This also applies to God hiding from people. If God does not allow scientists to test for his existence then he is taking away their ability to make an informed choice about obeying his will or not.Again this applies to Adam and Eve lacking knowledge of good and evil; they cannot make an informed choice without knowledge of the choice being made.All of this is irrelevant in your interpretation of Original Sin though, which says that people born to a un-saved father are judged guilty even without making a decision at all! This illustrates how the concept of Original Sin is an inherently immoral concept, and how God behaves immorally and unjustly in the Genesis account.

40 god damned posts and you STILL refuse to use the coding provided. You have been shown numerous times. I was hoping you were gone, never to return. Your posts read like a jumbled mess of dog shit. Get right or go home.

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Hah, this has to be one of the most naive and ridiculous claims I have encountered in a while. I am sure others will address this, but I need to list a few things as well:Christianity teaches racial inequality. ("Chosen people" and all that, remember?)Christianity teaches slavery. (Deuteronomy 21:10-11)Christianity teaches appalling cruelty and violence against one's own children. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)Christianity teaches that God's laws don't apply to everyone equally; he plays favorites and punishes unequally. (Numbers 12:1,9-10)Christianity teaches human sacrifice. (Genesis 22:1-18, Exodus 13:2)Now come on; Christianity does not teach the highest moral standards from where I am seeing things.

Hi Phage, What does any of the things you listed have to do with Christianity?Christianity (followers of Christ) have only been around since around AD 29.You are talking about things that happened 3500 years ago.Get your facts straight if you want to rant.And I grant that most of the people that claim to be christians today are no more that Christian Atheist. They say they believe God exists and then live like He does not exist.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."