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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Creationist Shortage

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Author Topic:   Creationist Shortage
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 61 of 415 (661822)
05-10-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by shadow71
05-10-2012 2:35 PM


Re: CRISPRs redux
shadow71 writes:
I am not a scientist so I have to rely on papers etc to support my contentions. If your logic. that one must know the science as a trained scientist before expressing support for his or her postion, then there is no room for debate by a layperson. For example when I brought to jury trial a medical malpractice case I had to rely on my experts explanation of what was wrong with the medical treatment and present that to the jury in the testimony of my experts and then in closing argument explain that to the jury. That is what I try to do on this board. But it gets quite annoying when all you get is silly comebacks and not argument.
Thank you for illuminating a good problem with this board. I was tempted to say something flippant, like "Don't bring a knife to gunfight", but you do make a point.
How can the uneducated hope to emerge against the educated? There were many topics in my schooling that were beyond me and my eyes would glaze over and I just squeaked by with a C or something. I was killer in math & science, but the rest? No so much.....
In my opinion, the biggest threat to this country and the world abroad is the deterioration of good STEM education. However, to ignore literature and liberal arts and so forth is to stab your eyes out.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 62 of 415 (661845)
05-10-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by shadow71
05-08-2012 8:31 PM


Well my question is: is the CRISPRS system an example of a dedicated non random, beneficial change that evolutionary theorists have excluded to this day?
Yes, CRISPRS are an example of non-random mutations. A perfect example, in fact. I have said as much in other threads/posts. They aren't excluded by scientists or evolutionary theorists. In fact, it is those very people who discovered them and wrote about them.
What you are missing is that the CRISPR system is extremely limited. It is only found in a limited number of prokaryotes, and it only involves a very limited number of genes in the prokaryotes that have this system. CRISPR represents an extremely limited mutational mechanism that is not responsible for the overall evolution of any species. The fact that random mutations do not act like the CRISPR system supports our conclusions, not yours.
So what is the mechanism of genetic change that makes up the vast, vast majority of evolutionary change? Random mutations with respect to fitness. You have not presented ANYTHING that says otherwise. In fact, I even started a thread discussing a paper from an author that you suggested. You abandoned that thread when it became apparent that your argument had been refuted.
If so how can one have a debate when a valid point is ignored by the so called scientific experts, because it does not fit into their theory?
The CRISPR system is largely irrelevant to the evolutionary history to all but a handful of organisms, and even in the organisms that carry the CRISPR system the evolutionary effect is limited to a tiny portion of the genome. So why are you making such a big deal of the CRISPR system? That is the real question. Even more, why did you abandon the thread where I spent a lot of my time dissecting the Wright paper?
To bring this back towards the topic, the reason we have a creationist shortage is that their sacred cows are slaughtered quite quickly. I put the CRISPR issue to bed quite a while ago, and yet here it is again, back from the dead. Creationists think that if they wait long enough we will forget that their arguments were refuted. Sorry, not going to happen.

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 63 of 415 (661848)
05-10-2012 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by shadow71
05-10-2012 2:22 PM


The problem I have is many scientists on this board ignore the facts of the system and merely state all mutations for fitness are random.
If you take all prokaryotes and add up the mutations over the last 10 years in all of those prokaryotes, how many of those mutations occurred as a result of the CRISPR system? If that number turns out to be 0.000000000000000000000000000000001% can you really blame us for rounding up and saying "all mutations are random with respect to fitness"?

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 415 (661903)
05-10-2012 8:43 PM


Where Have Creationists Gone?
The responses I've gotten from the last posters pertaining to macro, micro, etc are a classic example of where the creationists have gone and why.
All that these antagonists have posted is yakety yak about Buz's ignorance. Not one of these have explained an edifying thing as to why macro and micro evolution are unrelated to the Crysper System and where-in I have it wrong, pertaining to DNA, etc.
These same personal attackers demand evidence and reasons why I alledge that they are mistaken on a given Biblical issue. .
Most of these same people think they know so much about the Bible, when, in fact they know little or nothing about how the prophecies, etc corroborate one another regarding evidence and so forth. When, in threads that they get it wrong, I usually correct them with chapters and verses etc. I show them how-in they are mistaken.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

Replies to this message:
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 Message 69 by DrJones*, posted 05-10-2012 9:58 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 05-11-2012 2:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 72 by Rahvin, posted 05-11-2012 3:21 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 75 by frako, posted 05-11-2012 4:38 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 415 (661906)
05-10-2012 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
05-10-2012 8:43 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
Buz writes:
Most of these same people think they know so much about the Bible, when, in fact they know little or nothing about how the prophecies, etc corroborate one another regarding evidence and so forth. When, in threads that they get it wrong, I usually correct them with chapters and verses etc. I show them how-in they are mistaken.
Then here is your chance Buz, please provide links to where you have posted the Chapter and Verse. In fact Buz, there is a whole thread devoted to just that topic. Maybe you can join us there and for ONCE actually provide evidence. Come on over to Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? and let's see if you can support your assertions.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 05-10-2012 9:13 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 66 of 415 (661909)
05-10-2012 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
05-10-2012 8:58 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
Come on over to Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? and let's see if you can support your assertions.
That's a pretty cruel invite, Mr. Jar. Buzsaw is banned from participating in that forum.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 05-10-2012 8:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 415 (661911)
05-10-2012 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
05-10-2012 9:13 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
Then he can provide a link to any place where he has EVER provide chapter and verse support for ANY assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 05-10-2012 9:13 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 68 of 415 (661913)
05-10-2012 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taq
05-10-2012 5:44 PM


I haven't a clue of what CRISPRS is about (but it doesn't belong in this topic)
Yes, CRISPRS are an example of non-random mutations. A perfect example, in fact. I have said as much in other threads/posts.
This is the wrong forum and topic for discussion of whatever this CRISPRS is or isn't. It belongs in a "Biological Evolution" topic.
If there is a relevant existing topic (as in, it is really on topic there), please give that topic a bump and a comment (a link back to this mess might also be a good thing).
If there is no such existing topic, how about a new topic (of course, with a good topic title)?
Adminnemooseus

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 Message 62 by Taq, posted 05-10-2012 5:44 PM Taq has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 69 of 415 (661918)
05-10-2012 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
05-10-2012 8:43 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
Not one of these have explained an edifying thing as to why macro and micro evolution are unrelated to the Crysper System and where-in I have it wrong, pertaining to DNA, etc.
Where do you have it wrong Buz? How about the fact he you have repeatedly misspelled it as Crysper when in reality it is CRISPR, an acronym. It is clear from this that you don't have the slightest idea what people are talking about.
To tie this back to the topic I think this is a perfect example of why most creationists don't hang around, unlike Buz they actually have some level of intellectual honesty.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 70 of 415 (661993)
05-11-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dr Adequate
05-09-2012 8:01 AM


Re: Who Takes Who Seriously
Dr Adequate writes:
If you take him seriously, then please state in your own words what point he wishes to make about "the CRISPRSs system".
The thread is about why the "creationist" are not posting in the Evolution threads.
My point is that when I post good science such as the CRISPIRSs being non-random for fitness most evolutionists on this board deny that fact and then ridicule and attack me.
Why should we post when there is no acknowledgement of a good scientific point?
I do want to say that Taz and Wounded King and a few others will acknowledge good scientific points, but they are in the minority.

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 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-09-2012 8:01 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 71 of 415 (661996)
05-11-2012 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
05-10-2012 8:43 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
The responses I've gotten from the last posters pertaining to macro, micro, etc are a classic example of where the creationists have gone and why.
No, what this is an example of is how you don't understand anything of what is being said to you.
None of the messages you're referring to pertain to "macro, micro." They're all in reference, as I said, to
quote:
Not sure, but likely relating to how the Crysper System applies the DNA factor
and how this utterance is so devoid of understanding of the terms used that it's pretty stark evidence that you not only have no idea what you're talking about, you have no idea of what anybody is ever talking about.
Nobody cared that you corrected "macroevolution" to "microevolution" because what you posted is nonsensical with either word.
Not one of these have explained an edifying thing as to why macro and micro evolution are unrelated to the Crysper System and where-in I have it wrong, pertaining to DNA, etc.
No, that's incorrect. A falsehood. A "Buz fact", if you will. My message was very clear about where you had it wrong, and you've not replied to it.
When, in threads that they get it wrong, I usually correct them with chapters and verses etc. I show them how-in they are mistaken.
No, you don't. In the 9 years since I first raised the objection you've not even made an effort to address the critical flaw I identified in your supposed "Biblical prophecies." What you do is assert and repeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2012 8:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(4)
Message 72 of 415 (662013)
05-11-2012 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
05-10-2012 8:43 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
Buz...have you ever watched Star Trek?
I watched it a lot when I was a kid. And the writers of Star Trek, largely, knew virtually nothing whatsoever about physics or space travel. What they did was use sciency-sounding words to describe the Plot Device of the Week. The result was that the solution to a problem in any given episode would boil down to "reversing the quantum polaron field polarity," or "making a crack in the event horizon by using the deflector array to fire a tachyon burst."
It sounds wonderfully sciency to those who don;t really understand the terms being used. They use real terms from real physics, after all, like "event horizon" and "quantum."
But it was worse than meaningless. Absolutely anyone with even a passing familiarity with the actual terms would immediately know that the episode writers hadn't the faintest idea what those terms actually meant. If they did, they'd never have written a script so absurd as to involve a "crack in the event horizon" of a black hole.
It's called "Treknobabble," because it's a babbling mishmash of scientific terminology to make for a futuristic-sounding technological explanation for a plot event.
You, Buz, are using Treknobabble.
That's what everyone is harping on - you're using terminology that you don't understand, and it's extremely clear to those who do understand the terms that you do not...even if you think you do.
But most Creationists don't do quote the same thing. They often (usually) don;t understand the Theory of Evolution particularly well, but it's more a case of having been misinformed at the outset rather than stringing together evolution-sounding words in order to sound competent.
I don't think a dogpile on you for spouting Treknobabble is what scares off most Creationists. After all, it hasn't scared you. It hasn;t even made you spell the term correctly.
I don't even think there's a single influence that causes us to bleed Creationists. Dogpiling doesn't help. The mockery many of us use as our first and last resort in debate is certainly a problem. Some may have even changed their minds, and others may have sought easier places to "save souls."
But I wonder if the biggest single reason is one of evidence, and (just as importantly) a fundamental disagreement of what evidence is. We demand evidence a lot here, and the most frequent complaint from Creationists (including yourself, aside from complaints of imagined censorship) is that "I did post evidence, you just refused to recognize that it is evidence!" When Biblical evidence is regarded on one side of the debate as just as or more valid than experimental observation, and Biblical evidence is restricted to a subforum that rarely if ever sees an actual evolution-based topic...it seems the result would be a foregone conclusion.
The creation of the Bible subforum was Percy's attempt to resolve that problem by partitioning scientific vs. theological evidence...but all of the evolution debate stayed in the science forums, while the "religious" subforums became grounds for theological debate not relating to history or science.
I'm not sure what a better solution would be. If we allow Biblical and scientific evidence in the same debates, we'll end with threads spiraling around "that's not evidence" "yes it is" "books don't make things true" "it's not a book it's God's Word" until they reach the summation limit. But without being ever allowed to bring what they consider their most convincing arguments to the table in the first place, I can't imagine how we'd manage to keep Creationist posters interested in continuing here, especially in the face of the treatment they can sometimes expect (while the moderation staff is relatively fair, the mockery and insult carried by many of us, particularly when it's used with new members, is not a reason to stay).
What do you think, Buz? Is that a more helpful analysis of the problem? And if so, do you have any ideas for how to solve it?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2012 8:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2012 4:15 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 74 by subbie, posted 05-11-2012 4:20 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 415 (662020)
05-11-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Rahvin
05-11-2012 3:21 PM


Re: Creationist Shortage Solution.
Rahvin writes:
What do you think, Buz? Is that a more helpful analysis of the problem? And if so, do you have any ideas for how to solve it?
The solution is very simple. As NoNukes implied and as nearly 100% of evolutionists once voted, the solution is to allow Buzsaw to be Buzsaw in the common existing science forums as it was back in the good old days when the creo-evo debates were smokin.
There was no shortage then and good people like Silas, Cavediver, et al had something controversial enough for robust debate. Admin/Percy should go on a long vacation and let the more fair and balanced moderators do the moderating.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Rahvin, posted 05-11-2012 3:21 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Rahvin, posted 05-11-2012 7:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 74 of 415 (662021)
05-11-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Rahvin
05-11-2012 3:21 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
Buzsaw writes:
The solution is very simple. As NoNukes implied and as nearly 100% of evolutionists once voted, the solution is to allow Buzsaw to be Buzsaw in the common existing science forums as it was back in the good old days when the creo-evo debates were smokin.
There was no shortage then and good people like Silas, Cavediver, et al had something controversial enough for robust debate. Admin/Percy should go on a long vacation and let the more fair and balanced moderators do the moderating.
It really is quite astonishing, isn't it? One cannot escape the feeling that not only does Buz not understand science talk, he doesn't even really have much of a grasp on plain English.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 75 of 415 (662022)
05-11-2012 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
05-10-2012 8:43 PM


Re: Where Have Creationists Gone?
Where Have Creationists Gone?
Some got educated and realised creationism is a scam based on fairytale, and void of facts.
The others realised the internet is the place religions come to die and curled up under their bed screaming make the knowledge go away Jesus, make me thick again Jesus help me Jesus.
Most of these same people think they know so much about the Bible, when, in fact they know little or nothing about how the prophecies, etc corroborate one another regarding evidence and so forth. When, in threads that they get it wrong, I usually correct them with chapters and verses etc. I show them how-in they are mistaken.
Well you know little or nothing how the prophets of Dephi corroborate the existence of Apollo a Greek god
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2012 8:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2012 6:55 PM frako has replied

  
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