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Author | Topic: Liability of the Theory that the law of Angular Momentum disproves Big bang. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
This is a very, very focussed topic. Let's keep it clean, ok?
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CK Member (Idle past 4155 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
And what the big bang had to do with evolution is a mystery to me.
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Itachi Uchiha Member (Idle past 5642 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: |
jar writes: But that is the nature, strength and value of science. Theories are our best explaination of how something happened. As we learn more, as we gather more data, as new evidence is discovered, the theories must explain the new information. That means the theories MUST change if they are to remain our best explainations. This is all true and I have no problem with it. My problem with the big bang is that it is supposed to explain the origins of the universe. If the whole theory of evolution is true, we went from very simple to very complex as everything in the universe and the universe itself. So, if we are going to go backward things should get simpler along the way. In the big bang theory the same shold be expected but it appears to me that the theory makes the past get more complicated the farther we go back in time. There appears to be some sort of logical error involved. Can anybody clear this up for me. Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If the whole theory of evolution is true, we went from very simple to very complex as everything in the universe and the universe itself. Well that's not exactly what happened. The first life was simple. It had to be. That means that anything that followed could never be simpler than the first life. You can go from a single cell to multicell, but you cannot go from a single cell to no cell and still be alive. But most life now, and then, stayed at the very simple level. Look around even today and you'll find that almost all life is very, very simple. There is nothing in evolution that says complexity should increase. In fact, evolution could well be a decrease in complexity and there are many, many such examples. One is the presence of vestigial organs, pieces parts that once did something but are no longer needed and in the process of being discarded.
So, if we are going to go backward things should get simpler along the way. Again, we need to make sure we are all assigning the same meaning to words. If we look back in time we do find things becoming less complex even if harder to understand. Earlier stars have fewer heavy elements than second or third generation stars as one example. But we can only see so far back. Even our images from the most distant universe are still from a period long after the Big Bang. For us to see something at that distance it has to be pretty big and pretty energetic. So what we can see is limited by our capabilities. We only see a hint of all that is there. There are other indications though that seem to show great simplicity. The uniform background radiation that was first observed by Bell Labs Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias. That was only in 1965. The exciting part at the time was that this was the first confirmation of predictions that had been made about 30 years earlier. And that is how science works. The theory had been around for a long time. It was simply one competing explaination of what was seen. The name Big Bang was actually coined by Fred Hoyle as somewhat of a joke. The used it as a way of saying just how silly the idea was. And Hoyles position, the Steady State Theory was thought by many to be the best possible explaination. Unfortunately, as additional information, observation, confirmed predictions and data came in it became increasingly obvious that the steady state theory could not explain what was seen. So today, SST is mostly forgotten but the term Hoyle created as a joke remains. Such is the way science works. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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happy_atheist Member (Idle past 4941 days) Posts: 326 Joined: |
jazzlover_PR writes: In the big bang theory the same shold be expected but it appears to me that the theory makes the past get more complicated the farther we go back in time. What could be more simple than a singularity? Spacetime compressed infintely small, without any matter existing. Simply energy. Even after the big bang there would be nothing more than energy. I can't imagine a state the universe could be in that is simpler than spacetime containing formless energy. Only as the energy cooled did any type of structure start appearing as the energy condensed into matter in the form of subatomic particles.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
What could be more simple than a singularity? Any connection between the big bang and evolution is, as has been noted, tenuous at best. So the "complexity" talked about with regard to evolution of life on earth has no connection to any "complexity" talked about as far as the universe as a whole. There is no reason to figure on any direction of complexity for the universe as a whole other than entropy. The evolutionary process is another matter altogether. Let's not get dragged away from discussion of the angular momentum issue. It is the titled topic of this thread. Stick to it. ABEEven though it appears that d yankee was a bluffer. This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-26-2004 07:23 PM
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DaveInNYC Junior Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 2 Joined: |
OK, I know this is pretty basic stuff, but I can't seem to figure it out.
If I am hanging on for dear life on a really fast merry-go-round, the system (me and the merry-go-round) has a certain amount of angular momentum. If I let go, I will shoot off on a straight line, tangent to the merry-go-round's rotation. So hasn't the angular momentum of the system decreased, since I am no longer spinning around? If so, it is not obvious that any torque was applied to make this happen; if anything, a force was REMOVED, i.e. the force keeping me on the merry go round when I was holding on to it. So what am I missing? Is the removal of a force in a rotating systemsomehow equivalent to the application of a force?
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Hi, Dave.
A body travelling in a straight line will have a constant, non-zero angular momentum. In physics, angular momentum is defined to be the cross product of the position vector of the body from the origin of the coordinate system with its momentum vector. As the body travels forever, its momentum (in the absense of any forces) will remain constant; its distance will increase, but the angle between the position vector and the momentum vector will decrease, which will compensate in such a way that will keep the angular momentum constant. Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
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DaveInNYC Junior Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 2 Joined: |
Ah, I think I see. In other words, the body going in a straight line could also been seen as a body orbiting the original origin, albeit at an ever-expanding radius and an ever-decreasing rotational speed, keeping angular momentum constant, yes?
Edited by DaveInNYC, : No reason given.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Huh. I never thought of looking at it like that, but it seems to work. Interesting idea, Dave.
Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
integrate over time and you should have the effect of gravity on speed ... unless there is something else in the equations.
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