The bible and abortion

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Do you think at one point it becomes a 'human'? And that one day before this its alright to abort the baby? You shouldn't just look at what it is, you should take into account what its becoming.

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I haven't tried to nail down the exact point at which it becomes human. As I said earlier, the second trimester is a little too hazy for my tastes. But early enough on, you can definitely say, "that isn't a person."However, if we work under the assumption that it is human all along, I still have to bring it back to asking why the separate egg and sperm are not human as well.

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Say someone is painting a masterpiece. Can we just look at it halfway through and say, "This isn't a masterpiece, so I'm going to throw it out." You have to look at what its becoming, and not what it is.

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You and I don't have the right to throw it out. But the painter certainly does. I don't care if they've already bought the canvas and started mixing paints. They are under no obligation to give the world a masterpiece if they don't want to do so.It's a bad analogy though, because the painter also has the right to throw the painting out after it can be called a masterpiece.

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FYI, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. I have to write a biomedical ethics paper soon and am just throwing around some ideas.

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Cool. I hope you post the paper when it's done.

Dan,
I you/one can show that the sperm and the egg are NEVER the parent, for the sum of traits that could ostensibly return to the parental FORM ( which is only a line in Mendel's Pea Paper), then one would have embryology conducting such a science that states postmeiotic divisions are not human (as (to) the double infinity of accidental and substantial forms of medieval thought updated...) etc but we do not even have a single fossil we can agree is the parent of a transmutation of forms that represent the categories of taxonomic divisions as Darwin worked to establish.This is like saying I am therefore I think- Dont get me wrong. It would be wrong to consider a parent "primative" with respect to a baby. But maturity is not all it prooves itself to be. Some of us worse "siners" than others. what 'primatives' would result from such a science I do not say nor know but Know I should have been given a degree in biology/evolution for my parents to be proud of. As for me I know. That is enough.

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I haven't tried to nail down the exact point at which it becomes human

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Foam board and push pins work fairly well.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Duplicate, sorry[This message has been edited by MrHambre, 09-24-2003]

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Well the last half about protesters being so crazy was a joke, but it seems I didn't make it very well. I meant to imply they are so crazy they don't even know WHY THEY ARE PROTESTING (as in which biblical passage they are using).

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Oh, so now all abortion protesters are christian?------------------
"I AM THE MESSENJAH"contact me for any reason at: messenjahjr@yahoo.com

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I agree that abortion should be lagal, what I don't agree with is the promotion of a casual attitude tword it.

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Several things...1) I challenge you to show me any major pro-choice organization which promotes a casual attitude towards abortion.2) If someone has such a casual attitude towards abortion, do you really want them raising a child?

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Maybe it's immoral in both cases, but it is more immoral to condemn a raped woman to carry the child of her attacker?

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Bud didn't you just say that abortion is wrong, "Whatever the mother feels or suffers."?It surely seems that you have no problem with a woman suffering any amount of pain as long as you deem her somehow "deserving" of it.Condoms break. Birth control (even the pill) fails. People are irresponsible and make mistakes.Did you know that most underage girls who get pregnant are knocked up by much older men?It seems to me that you are focusing a great deal on blaming the women and girls for these unwanted pregnancies and speaking not at all about the men who get the women and girls preganant.Did you know that getting an abortion is much safer to the woman's health than carrying a child to term and giving birth to it?

Er, NO. If you read my first post. I said I think current abortion laws are about accurate, but perhaps the window should be narrowed slightly to about 14 or 16 weeks, rather than 18 (which it is in my country). I said abortion shouldn't be a decision taken lightly. No where did I say abortion is wrong whatever the mother feels or suffers. I said IF the fetus is fully human then it is wrong whatever the mother feels or suffers.

I believe it's available over the counter of every pharmacy, I think it's even free. You know, Rei, I'm at a loss to what you are arguing with me about. That's practically my position on abortion re-stated.

Nope. I said the fetus is on it's way to being human. It's not there yet maybe it's only 50% of the way, as it goes along the road it's moral worth increases. At some point that moral value passes the woman's desire to avoid inconvenience, that point is further along in the case of rape. In no way does that carry on to applying to a fully human baby.

MrJack responds to Rei:

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And that is *how* easy for a 14 old to come across (even if she knew how to deal with the situation)? There's the issue of parental consent requirements here.

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I believe it's available over the counter of every pharmacy, I think it's even free.

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Perhaps in England it is.In the US, there is no over-the-counter medication, free or not, that can be used as a morning after treatment.And the various organizations have done everything they can to restrict research on methods of abortion. It took many years for RU-486 to come over to the US.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Really? That sucks. But you can get it from your doctor, and family planning clinics can't you?

Actually, it isn't so easy to come by here in America. I had an accident with the condom breaking once. The morning after pill has to be taken within 72 hours intercourse. I called my clniic right away in the morning. They said I could come in and get the morning after pill in that afternoon, but when I showed up I had an extra wait as the physician they scheduled me with refuses to prescripbe the morning after pill, so they had to find a physician who was willing to prescribe it. Also, even if you're in a state where parental permission isn't required, a minor's medical record is available for review by the parents/guardian. On the other hand, which not many people realize, in situations like mine all they really did was prescribe me birth control pills that I was instructed to more or less "overdose" on. However, you have to figure in many factors and without medical knowledge it is not safe to just guess how many to take and when to take them.And my situation wasn't, in my opinion, unreasonable at all. I am 33 years old, always use protection, and I have juvenile diabetes. Because my diabetes isn't very well controlled I most likely would miscarry if I tried to carry a pregnancy to term, and there are multiple health risks for both me and the baby if I were to try. And just the thought of having a child who would be at such an increased risk for this disease, I don't want to put a child through that.

I had no idea acquiring it was such an issue in America. I'd assumed it was as available there as it is here.

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Actually, it isn't so easy to come by here in America.

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A friend of mine in college (this was maybe three years ago) had a woman at a free clinic tell her that there was no morning after pill, and that she didn't know what my friend was talking about.