Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 31 of 372 (771177)
10-21-2015 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Omnivorous
10-21-2015 5:02 PM


Omnivorous
You do not liberate women by ignoring their plight.
Islam is a view of life that says that a man can oppress a woman and his daughters on pain of death if they do not do as he demands.
Islam is a view of life that denies women equality, a staple of every decent legal system and something that Islam denies women.
"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." — Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.
Muslin men need a wake up call and banning their oppression of their women in how they dress, to me, is a good place to start.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Omnivorous, posted 10-21-2015 5:02 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Omnivorous, posted 10-22-2015 10:48 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 10-22-2015 12:04 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 372 (771178)
10-21-2015 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
10-21-2015 5:19 PM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
RAZD
I am please to hear that you think Mr. Trudeau will end the era of Canadian Muslim men persecuting their women and daughters.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2015 5:19 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Bliyaal, posted 10-22-2015 8:31 AM Greatest I am has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 33 of 372 (771193)
10-22-2015 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Greatest I am
10-21-2015 4:26 PM


They ticket for cellphones as dangerous and head and face apparel that creates blind spots are also dangerous to the public.
You should notice that cellphones are still legal in Canada. What's illegal is driving while using your cellphone with your hands. If this is an argument to ban the niqab, it's a really bad one.
Canadian culture and values are the men and women are equal. That is not the Islamic way and for us to allow the oppression of women is not the Canadian way.
Canadian culture is aslo one of being open to different cultures. We have laws against discrimination.
I also notice that you completely forget your argument about honor killings. Why is that?
It seems we have everything in place to prevent (or punish) what you're fearing. Please stop. Not all muslims men are oppressors and not all muslims women are oppressed, even if they wear a hijab or a niqab.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 10-21-2015 4:26 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Stile, posted 10-22-2015 9:16 AM Bliyaal has not replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 34 of 372 (771194)
10-22-2015 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Greatest I am
10-21-2015 8:33 PM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
You totally misread RAZD.
Under Harper, muslims were targets of discrimination, mainly by people like you who felt endorsed by the position of the government.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 10-21-2015 8:33 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Greatest I am, posted 10-22-2015 2:06 PM Bliyaal has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 35 of 372 (771196)
10-22-2015 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Bliyaal
10-21-2015 1:35 PM


Bliyaal writes:
Stile writes:
Quebec is not a very good representation of Canada. They've even tried to leave Canada (and currently still try) at varying levels recently and throughout history.
Since the majority voted against it twice and the current level of support is under 40%, please don't include us all in your definition of Quebec. I certainly don't fall into that category.
Sorry, didn't mean to do such a thing.
I was only trying to emphasize my point that "Quebec is not a very good representation of Canada" in a short, succinct manner.
And, really, I think I did... and certainly didn't include "us all" in my statement... hence the "varying levels" portion.
But, if you took particular offence, then I apologize for making you feel included in something you shouldn't have been.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Bliyaal, posted 10-21-2015 1:35 PM Bliyaal has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 36 of 372 (771198)
10-22-2015 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Bliyaal
10-22-2015 8:28 AM


Bliyaal writes:
What's illegal is driving while using your cellphone with your hands. If this is an argument to ban the niqab, it's a really bad one.
Good clarification.
We can also note that using-cell-phones-while-driving only became an offence after there were many accidents logged in which using-cell-phones-while-driving was the causal factor.
I'm sure that if wearing-blind-spot-blocking-clothes ever started causing a significant number of accidents... then such a thing would also become an offence and would also likely include things like hoodies as well.
When Greatest I am tries to claim that a similar issue exists, when the data doesn't support their statement... well... it's just easy to see that their motivation is closer to hysteria than it is to objective reason.
Perhaps the data will change in the future. If such a thing happens, then some appropriate action should happen as well.
But until the actual data changes... the hysteria should just be ignored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Bliyaal, posted 10-22-2015 8:28 AM Bliyaal has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 37 of 372 (771203)
10-22-2015 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Greatest I am
10-21-2015 8:30 PM


Sisters are doing it for themselves.
GIA writes:
You do not liberate women by ignoring their plight.
Islam is a view of life that says that a man can oppress a woman and his daughters on pain of death if they do not do as he demands.
Islam is a view of life that denies women equality, a staple of every decent legal system and something that Islam denies women.
So you believe that women's equality is enshrined in every decent legal system. Which ones would those be? Is it the job of any culture which first makes progress on a human rights front to impose its standards on others? When has that worked?
All the West has to do to hobble reform movements in Muslin nations is to express support.
Every patriarchal religion has texts detailing the appalling things husbands and fathers may do to their wives and daughters (and sons). In cultures where that is lacking, the men generally make do without it: the fault is not in our gods.
"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." — Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)
There's a fine irony from someone who wants to come for the Muslims.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.
Yeah, well, bite me--I'm not a good person. But I am an old, experienced one, and I've read a great deal of history. Your rhetoric is as tired as your bigotry is thinly veiled.
You would make a fine leader of mobs.
Muslin men need a wake up call and banning their oppression of their women in how they dress, to me, is a good place to start.
Many Muslim women choose to wear the things you want banned.
Perhaps you know of some society where gender equality has been perfected--was it achieved there by changing which men tell women what to do?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Greatest I am, posted 10-21-2015 8:30 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 10-22-2015 2:30 PM Omnivorous has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 372 (771208)
10-22-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Greatest I am
10-21-2015 4:22 PM


Greatest I am writes:
It was information from Saudi Arabia.
You're all over the map. In Message 8, you talked about fires in Canadian mosques or schools. In the OP, you talked about a Canadian "hard line against the hijab, niqab and burka". I'm saying there is no "large majority in Canada" who would outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka. Do you have any evidence that there is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Greatest I am, posted 10-21-2015 4:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 10-22-2015 2:32 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 39 of 372 (771209)
10-22-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Greatest I am
10-21-2015 8:30 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Muslin men need a wake up call and banning their oppression of their women in how they dress, to me, is a good place to start.
If you impose a dress code on Muslim women, you're not just aiming at oppressive men. You're also denying women the right to wear the hijab, niqab or burka if they want to.
There are all sorts of social pressures on people of all genders and/or cultures. Many people pressure their children to go to college. Are you going to ban colleges to prevent that "oppression"?
If somebody says they want to go to college or wear a hijab/niqab/burka, I'm inclined to take their word for it instead of accepting your claim that they're being oppressed.
(By the way, I don't think I've ever seen a burka in person but I see a niqab once in a while and I see hijabs every day. I see hijabs on women wearing anything from floor-length dresses to jeans. They don't all seem to be that "oppressed".)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Greatest I am, posted 10-21-2015 8:30 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 10-22-2015 12:24 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 10-22-2015 2:36 PM ringo has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 372 (771211)
10-22-2015 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
10-22-2015 12:04 PM


I see hijabs on women wearing anything from floor-length dresses to jeans. They don't all seem to be that "oppressed".)
That's my experience as well. I find the idea of outlawing the hijab in particular, fairly misguided. In fact, the idea that you can fight oppression by dictating to people what they can and cannot wear is fairly bizarre. But that's par for these threads.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 10-22-2015 12:04 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by xongsmith, posted 10-22-2015 1:40 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 41 of 372 (771218)
10-22-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by NoNukes
10-22-2015 12:24 PM


NoNukes ends with
But that's par for these threads.
So to speak! Good one.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 10-22-2015 12:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 42 of 372 (771221)
10-22-2015 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Bliyaal
10-22-2015 8:31 AM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
Bliyaal
My position is led by my own thinking and listening to Muslim women.
You will note that the Canadian government is not in favor of what I propose.
I recognize why the Liberals chose to put getting elected ahead of opening up this can of worms at the present time but hope they just lied about what they truly believe and step up to insuring that all Muslim women share in the freedoms that good Canadians have died for to give us. That being full equality of all Canadians.
I hear those who say that some women claim that they freely wear the hijab, niqab and burka. If that is true then I would suggest that they see a doctor as that is not normal behavior for a free human being. Women and men instinctively know and look for body language while communicating and such apparel inhibits that. There are also many more cases where wearing those is a forced Islamic tradition. It is men exercising their master’s privilege over their slave. Sexual slavery, permission to beat wives and daughters and forcing a dress code on women are three of the vilest aspects of Islam.
We live in free countries where we still have mainstream religions, Christianity and Islam, maintaining their ancient misogynous ways. That is why many associate the hijab, niqab and burka with submission and slavery. In our free countries, seeing such a display of ownership should be an insult to every free man and woman.
Islam itself does not call for such apparel. It is the Muslim male, who complains of not being able to control himself at the sight of women. This has him doing the cowardly thing of imposing that women hide themselves behind clothing because he cannot control his thinking and is afraid to think of sex. A really pathetic male mindset that we should and would give sympathy to if it was not such a cowardly way of training his mind to not be such an easily tempted one. It seems that slave owners become cowards who are too weak minded to train themselves and must abuse their slave instead.
Free people do not tolerate slavery in their land. Even if the slave says she is freely giving up her freedom. If she wishes to act like a slave, let her emigrate where men enjoy and promote ownership of women and slavery. That is not in Canada.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Bliyaal, posted 10-22-2015 8:31 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Bliyaal, posted 10-22-2015 2:42 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 48 by Blue Jay, posted 10-22-2015 4:14 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 10-23-2015 11:56 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 43 of 372 (771223)
10-22-2015 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Omnivorous
10-22-2015 10:48 AM


Re: Sisters are doing it for themselves.
Omnivorous
Perhaps you know of some society where gender equality has been perfected"
Not yet but Canada is one of the closest and that is why our cultural norms must be protected from Muslim norms.
There were some Scandinavian cultures that were closer but Muslim immigration has ruined them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPzHz15znSo
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Omnivorous, posted 10-22-2015 10:48 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Omnivorous, posted 10-22-2015 3:39 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 44 of 372 (771224)
10-22-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
10-22-2015 11:51 AM


ringo
Learn to read.
I said ---
"Let us hope that no fire ever finds a Canadian mosque or school with female children in it."
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 10-22-2015 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 10-23-2015 11:45 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 372 (771225)
10-22-2015 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
10-22-2015 12:04 PM


ringo
Ask them.
Most will say they are forced by either their husbands or peer groups.
Those who try to escape are part of the 5,000 or so yearly Honor killings.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 10-22-2015 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 10-23-2015 11:49 AM Greatest I am has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024