Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,814 Year: 3,071/9,624 Month: 916/1,588 Week: 99/223 Day: 10/17 Hour: 6/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 31 of 276 (660640)
04-27-2012 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rahvin
04-25-2012 12:49 PM


Ok, I'll be that guy
I was with you until this:
And even the choice to transition genders is not just a matter of preference - it's correcting a problem. Transgendered individuals don't just want boobs or a penis. They aren't crazy. It's become cliche, but they really do feel trapped in the wrong body.
This is only a recent phenomenon, if you could even call it that, due to a few sick doctors fucking with what nature built and now "in the wrong body" becomes a thing that can be said.
I'm a HUGE supporter of gay rights but certainly not of slicing up one's body to change their entire gender. I don't know how a doctor can ethically do that to a human being.
I'm all for gays doing whatever, my record speaks for itself here in that debate. And I wouldn't tell someone they can't feel like a woman or a man if they were in the opposite body. But for a medical doctor to use their skills and knowledge to butcher someone up like that is frankly fucked up.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2012 12:49 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Dr Jack, posted 04-28-2012 6:44 AM onifre has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


(2)
Message 32 of 276 (660661)
04-28-2012 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by onifre
04-27-2012 7:30 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
Have you looked at the evidentially data collected looking at transpeople's experiences and well-being following corrective surgery?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by onifre, posted 04-27-2012 7:30 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by onifre, posted 04-28-2012 11:11 AM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 12:11 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 276 (660665)
04-28-2012 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rahvin
04-26-2012 12:02 PM


Whether a person is gay or transgender through genetics, choice, environment, or any other reason does not matter. They are the way they are, and they have just as much a right to be who and what they are as the rest of us.
I think that view is extremely naive. Because our society is constructed such that it imparts harm to and discriminates against the gay and transgendered, it does indeed matter whether or not being gay or transgendered is a choice.
Yes, they do have the rights you describe, but those rights are not recognized. If being gay were actually a choice, it would be quite a foolish choice to make here in North Carolina, where in all likelihood the right to marry or even to form a recognized civil union is going to be put forever beyond reach next election.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rahvin, posted 04-26-2012 12:02 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 34 of 276 (660683)
04-28-2012 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Jack
04-28-2012 6:44 AM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
Have you looked at the evidentially data collected looking at transpeople's experiences and well-being following corrective surgery?
Corrective surgery? Wow... ok. Correcting what, exactly?
What are people going to say, really? They're now fucked, and forced to live with the choice they've made. I've read of there being plenty of emotional problems after the surgery requiring therapy and counciling. Let's not pretend it's all good afterwards.
It should be illegal for doctors to use their skills of healing people in such an outrageous fashion. It's sick. Again, people can do whatever they want and feel like they're a woman all they want. But doctors should not butcher people simply because they requested it. There is such a thing as ethics in the medical field and I find it extremely unethical to perform such a "corrective" surgery.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dr Jack, posted 04-28-2012 6:44 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 35 of 276 (660690)
04-28-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Jack
04-28-2012 6:44 AM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
Mr Jack writes:
... corrective surgery....
Corrective surgery would be something like fixing a malfunctioning heart valve. "Gender reassignment" is fakery. It doesn't make you a different gender; it just makes you look like a different gender.
Maybe you'd like to answer the question I asked earlier: Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery? My guess is that some people would feel better after having their race "corrected".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dr Jack, posted 04-28-2012 6:44 AM Dr Jack has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by onifre, posted 04-28-2012 1:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2012 4:00 PM ringo has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 36 of 276 (660695)
04-28-2012 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
04-28-2012 12:11 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
Maybe you'd like to answer the question I asked earlier: Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery? My guess is that some people would feel better after having their race "corrected".
We saw how well it turned out for Michael Jackson.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 12:11 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 276 (660700)
04-28-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
04-28-2012 12:11 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
It doesn't make you a different gender; it just makes you look like a different gender.
What's the difference, exactly?
Aside from the birth configuration of their genitals, what's the practical difference between a transwoman and a woman with XY syndrome? My sense is that you and Oni are a little too hung up on bathrooms, or something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 4:16 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 41 by onifre, posted 04-28-2012 5:25 PM crashfrog has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 276 (660702)
04-28-2012 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
04-28-2012 4:00 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
crashfrog writes:
Aside from the birth configuration of their genitals, what's the practical difference between a transwoman and a woman with XY syndrome?
What's the difference between a soldier who loses a leg to an IED and a man who wants to have a healthy leg amputated because it "feels wrong"?
Choice.
crashfrog writes:
My sense is that you and Oni are a little too hung up on bathrooms, or something.
I can't speak for Oni but I've aways been an advocate of unisex bathrooms.
Edited by ringo, : "unsex" --> "unisex"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2012 4:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2012 4:19 PM ringo has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 276 (660703)
04-28-2012 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
04-28-2012 4:16 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
Choice.
So what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 4:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 4:47 PM crashfrog has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 40 of 276 (660705)
04-28-2012 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
04-28-2012 4:19 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
crashfrog writes:
Choice.
So what?
So what what? If you have a point to make, make it.
My position has been that a person should be able to live in society without having to slice-and-dice him/herself to conform to a stereotype.
What's the difference between amputating an unwanted healthy leg and amputating unwanted healthy genitals?
Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery?
Edited by ringo, : Speling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2012 4:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 04-29-2012 8:59 PM ringo has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 41 of 276 (660708)
04-28-2012 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
04-28-2012 4:00 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
My sense is that you and Oni are a little too hung up on bathrooms, or something.
I have no hang ups when it comes to sexuality. I could careless. I'm just calling into question the ethical aspect of performing such a surgery one a human being simply because they feel like a different gender. That's not a doctors job, in my opinion.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2012 4:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 04-29-2012 9:06 PM onifre has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 276 (660835)
04-29-2012 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
04-28-2012 4:47 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
My position has been that a person should be able to live in society without having to slice-and-dice him/herself to conform to a stereotype.
Oh, I agree. But what about the people who want their bodies to be modified in a certain way?
Choice, you said. I think people making their own choices is pretty important.
What's the difference between amputating an unwanted healthy leg and amputating unwanted healthy genitals?
Nothing. I'm completely OK with people amputating unwanted legs, healthy or otherwise, assuming that it's their choice. How else are you supposed to attach the prosthesis?
Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery?
Sounds perfectly fine. It's completely legal. What, precisely, am I supposed to object to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 4:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 04-30-2012 1:03 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 43 of 276 (660838)
04-29-2012 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by onifre
04-28-2012 5:25 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
I'm just calling into question the ethical aspect of performing such a surgery one a human being simply because they feel like a different gender. That's not a doctors job, in my opinion.
I don't see the difference between that and someone who feels that their boobs are too small or their dick is too big. Americans spend billions on elective surgeries. Saving lives aren't the only things doctors do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by onifre, posted 04-28-2012 5:25 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by onifre, posted 04-30-2012 12:36 PM crashfrog has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 44 of 276 (660889)
04-30-2012 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by crashfrog
04-29-2012 9:06 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
I don't see the difference between that and someone who feels that their boobs are too small or their dick is too big.
Yes you do. There is a huge difference between a girl getting bigger tits and going through a sex change operation.
Americans spend billions on elective surgeries.
Eledtive surgery? I thought it was corrective surgery?
Saving lives aren't the only things doctors do.
Unfortunately it's also used to satisfy an increasingly shallow societies dream look. Soon all black girls will be blonde girls and all short guys tall. Then we'll be perfect, and happy.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 04-29-2012 9:06 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Rahvin, posted 04-30-2012 1:09 PM onifre has replied
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2012 7:46 PM onifre has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 45 of 276 (660892)
04-30-2012 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
04-29-2012 8:59 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
crashfrog writes:
I'm completely OK with people amputating unwanted legs, healthy or otherwise, assuming that it's their choice.
When somebody makes a choice that is regarded as harmful - e.g. suicide - most societies respond with counselling rather than laissez-faire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 04-29-2012 8:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2012 7:48 PM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024