Condemn gay marriage, or just gay rape?

Sure jar. Only you have ever read the bible. On you say so ? Just because of wink and a smile from jar, I should regard the account of the flood in Genesis as not having happened.Maybe you don't mean I never read the bible. Maybe you mean I didn't check with you first about how to read the Bible.I take the flood as history because I am convinced that Jesus took it as history. If it was good enough for Jesus, its good enough for me. I take the integrity of Jesus Christ to be beyond questioning.We may squabble over little particulars about the flood - its extent, how it happened, and such things. But I have no problem regarding the record above fiction.I am not going to get too technical about the word "myth". I will just say the flood of Noah I definitely do not take as fiction. On your say so jar? Just on your authority discard the Genesis flood as fiction ?Sorry. I am more impressed that Jesus Christ seems to have regarded it seriously. So I trust Christ's evaluation of the account. Now, I question YOUR reading of the Bible.Before the flood everyone followed their own conscience. After the flood God ordained capital punishment. Remember, NO ONE was allowed to execute the murder Cain. But after the flood God said if man sheds man's blood, he would have his blood shed by man - capital punishment.I interpret that as a transition from anarchy to human government. There is a lot of that in the Old Testament regarding the society of the Hebrews.You don't have a lot of that kind of instructions in the New Testament. You have marriage as a pointed to the joing of Christ to the church in Ephesians Five.I can come back to that perhaps latter. I disagree here. You have the MENTIONING of polygamous marriages having HAPPENED. There is a difference between what the Bible records as having happened and what the Bible teaches.There is a difference between what OUGHT to be and what HAPPENED to be.The first mention of a man with more than one wife is in Genesis 4:19:"And Lamech took two wives for himself: the name of the first was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah ...

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And Lamech said to his two wives, Adah and Zillah, listen to my voice; O wives of Lamech, hearken to my speech;

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For I have slain a man for wounding me, Even a young man for striking me. If Cain is avenged sevenfold, Then Lamech seventu-sevenfold." (See Genesis 4:10-24) The overall impression of this passage to me is not positive but negative. This man is key figure in the development of the world that is emerging from the departure from the presence of God by Cain.Lamech appears vindictive, murderous, greedy, and definitely exploits to his own self interest, the words of God. He refers to God's word but in a twisted way to benefit his own murderous temper.Lamech's greed is manifested in his taking of two wives. And though it is recorded as having happened, I don't think it was according to God's desire. For from the beginning of creation it was A MAN and A WOMAN.God could have made multiple wives for Adam. He did not. So polygamy as well as homosexual marriage is the invention of fallen man.I have to stop here for this afternoon.My wife is making some requests of me. Been married for 33 years. Incidently, how long have you been married jar, if you are ? I just wanted to know if you had any actual mariage experience to go along with your Bible reading.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You haven't pointed out anywhere where it says otherwise. As you've been shown repeatedly, His commandments do not forbid it. We're all abundantly aware of what you can't see. What you can't see is not an excuse for proclaiming something to be forbidden by God. Isn't it better to err on the side of caution and judge not lest ye be judged in like manner? And yet you still haven't shown that this is what is ordained by God. Once again, the only requirement in His commandments is the commitment. Your contempt for God's creation is noted. You have that backwards. If you want to deny to another couple what you enjoy yourself, you have no real sense of humanity. And yet, after hundreds of posts, you still haven't shown that that principle is in the Bible. That's exactly the point. It was the yoking together that counted. Abraham broke the yoke because he thought the command to procreate was paramount. The principle of marriage expressed in the Bible was the principle of procreation.Of course, if God produced a miracle baby for Sarah, He could also produce a miracle baby for any other childless couple.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

Sheesh, now I am really sure you have not read the Bible but as I have pointed out before, just quote mine to support a point.Genesis 4 is the beginning of the genealogy that forms the tribes of Israel. When you look at Lamech in context it is NOT about God disapproving of having two wives, it is about killing in anger.Here is the passage in context.

quote:

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19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

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23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.

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24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."

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and the passage about Cain that is referenced.

quote:

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15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

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Note that what is actually said is that if anyone kills Cain, Cain will be avenged seven times over. Lamech is saying that if anyone kills Lamech that person will suffer vengeance even greater than would be visited on the killer of Cain.But the important point was to identify clans, it is beginning the associations.BUT Wait...There's more... patterns change, even in the Bible. Patterns that are established in one part of the Bible are contradicted and/or rescinded by other later stories.And the flood is not refuted by my say so or even a wink, but by overwhelming evidence. If Jesus did believe it was fact, he was simply wrong. If you want to see that refutation yet again, look here.The Biblical floods as described in the Bible never happened.And no, before the flood everyone did not just follow their own conscience, the very story you point to shows that is not true. Cain was marked to protect him. Personal conscience had nothing to do with that, the story says he was protected.And you never bothered to address the real issue.Just as patterns and standards change throughout the Bible, today we need to address the needs of another group, the least of these my brothers.How do we provide equal protection under the law for same sex marriages?

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

If you'll notice I wrote "overall impression". I am aware that the passage pinpoints Lamech's murderous anger.But I wrote of the overall impression of the negative decline in Lamech's attitude, which I believe includes his greediness to have multiple wives.Greedy Lamech took to himself two wives. Why else would the Scripture single this fact out ? It well simply could have said that Lamech killed a young man for wounding him. It did not.The mentioning of him taking multiple wives underscores his general degraded character.

But there is NOTHING in the passage about Lamech being greedy.Let me post it yet again:

quote:

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19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

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23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.

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24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."

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Also there is nothing in there about a murderous anger, just that he killed someone that had injured him and nothing about "his general degraded character."But you still have not addressed the basics of my post that actually deal with the topic.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Anyone like yourself, who insists that homosexuality has nothing to do with Genesis 19, I expect to remain in denial.Repeating Christ's exposition of Genesis in Mark 10 will do no good to one in denial.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The one who's in denial is you. You admit that you can't answer the question, "Why would Lot offer women to homosexuals?" and yet you cling to a view that contradicts the text.In any case, the events of Genesis 19 would constitute - at the very most - rape, which is not the question at hand. Either way, Genesis 19 in no way supports your position. The trouble is that endless repetition is all you've done. You've never made the slightest attempt to show your imaginary "pattern" in the rest of the Bible.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

You don't have a bird's eye view of Scripture. You have problem discerning that what is being recorded is related to the overall theme of what happened to the human race after they lost this intimate fellowship with God.THousands of people lived. Only a few are mentioned. Some of us can detect why these ones and the details of their lives are singled out for mention.Thanks for posting the passages again. Do it once more.But if anyone doubts the the mentioning of Lamech taking TWO wives is neutral or assume it was a good thing, I would ask the following question:Jacob married two women - Leah and Rachal. Jacob loved Rachal greatly. He labored 14 years to get her.However, the first woman Jacob married was Leah. The question:Why, when Jacob died, did he request to be buried next to LEAH and not next to Rachal ?What happened in Jacob's realization that he thought it was proper for him to be buried beside the less favored woman and not his real sweetheart Rachal ? Rachal was the sweetheart love of Jacob's life. But in old age, as he was about to die, he realized that LEAH, his first wife, was the woman that God had yoked him together with in God's original plan for Jacob's marriage.Abraham rested in the tomb with Sarah.
Isaac rested in the tomb with Rebekah.
And Jacob gave orders that he should rest beside his first wife, the unloved one - Leah.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You havent been thinking critically long have you. If you are the standard then there is really no standard. You would have no moral ground for complaining that a group of aliens exterminated your planet anymore than youexterminatinga colony of ants.Your EXISTENCE makes no difference to a subjective standard, if all humans are just humansThis isnt rocket science, PDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Jaywill, I wouldnt give this continual accusation to much attention, coming from a guy that doesnt even know if he coming or going about the scripturesOne minute its an ass lying about something, the next we are suppose to pay close attention to something he quotes or references, because he likes it and it seems to support his assertionsIts like talking to a childDawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

I couldn't find where he asked to be buried next to Leah in your quote. He asked to be buried with his fathers.Did I miss something?

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Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio

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Real things always push back.
-William James

Genesis is a book of beginnings. It is a book about the origin or first occurences of things.I consider that many of l the "seeds" of truth in the Bible are first sown in Genesis. They are developed latter through the other books.The mentioning of Lamech is also a seed, a negative seed. One of the aspects of this first mention of a character like Lamech, is his taking of an ADDITIONAL wife.He left father and mother and was joined to his wife and then some. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Still trying to change the subject and misdirect the audience attention so you can palm the pea as well as misrepresent the Bible. There is NO evidence that the human race "they lost this intimate fellowship with God."Have you ever read the Bible?And there is STILL nothing in the passage about Lamech being greedy or about "his general degraded character."Further which wife was preferred is only yet another subject that is simply not in the passage, whether we are talking about Lamech's preference or God's preferences.Here it is yet again as requested.

quote:

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19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

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23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.

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24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."

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Maybe this time it will have something about Lamech being greedy or about "his general degraded character."And yet again you still have not addressed the basics of my post that actually deal with the topic.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

LOL. I knew it! You're right on time.I knew someone would say "Hey, he just asked to be buried in the same cave. "Okay. But see you NO significance that Abraham was matched with Sarah and Isaac was matched with Rebekah and Jacob was matched with Leah ?

And again there is nothing in the passage that says having two wives is a problem or an issue.Here is the passage yet again:

quote:

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19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

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23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.

​

24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."

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And sheesh, still nothing in there about a murderous anger, just that he killed someone that had injured him and nothing about "his general degraded character."Maybe next time will be the charm.And you never bothered to address the real issue.Just as patterns and standards change throughout the Bible, today we need to address the needs of another group, the least of these my brothers.How do we provide equal protection under the law for same sex marriages?Edited by jar, : he almost got me into the rabbit hole but I added the part he keeps ignoring

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!