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Author Topic:   Atheists can't hold office in the USA?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 46 of 777 (747397)
01-15-2015 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
01-15-2015 6:09 AM


Re: Reppin Atheists
Phat writes:
Do you see yourself representing basic human rights
Not representing them, no, just talking about them.
or do you feel victimized as an atheist?
Not remotely. Nobody gives a hoot in the UK. It never comes up in day to day conversation.
I suspect I'd feel differently in the US - in fact I know I would. I was asked which church I attended in Colarado by a friend of a friend that I'd just met. It was as casual a comment as asking what you do for a living. That kind of assumption on meeting a stranger would never, ever happen in the UK. I said I was an atheist and the friend of friend reacted as though I'd pointed a gun in her face. Never saw her again. Luckily.
Your question might be better addressed to an American atheist. Perhaps one living in Mississippi - if such an item exists.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 6:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 47 of 777 (747409)
01-15-2015 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Tangle
01-15-2015 4:05 AM


The Larger Issue
Sorry, Tangle, but these laws still on the books in actuality mean nothing, effectively or symbolically, to anyone but the hard core crazies. The hard-core crazies same as you will find in any society, even yours.
However, there is a larger issue. While those laws have no effect the sentiment behind those laws is pervasive.
To answer the question directly, no, except in smaller local jurisdictions, an open self-acknowledged atheist cannot hold an elective office in the freedom-loving democratic republic of the United States of America. All the prominent state-wide and national offices are effectively closed to the avowed atheist. And you have touched on why. The reason is, as you say, because of a high proportion of its population holding primitive religious views.
At present there is only one acknowledged atheist in the US Congress. Kyrsten Sinema, Congresswoman from Arizona’s hotbed of liberalism, east Phoenix and Scottsdale. Even in this she does not express it openly and answers the religion question with her belief in secular government. Not even the most liberal and tolerant districts in the bluest of States in this country have accomplished this feat. But she’s pretty so there is the counterweight.
There are probably many more atheists in the House and Senate, and we have had a few atheists as President, but they lie about it since that’s what politicians do. They want to get elected.
Until this liberty-loving free and open USA society gets over its backward obsession with superstition and throws off this unspoken tyranny of the religious mind an out-of-the-closet openly atheist citizen cannot seriously stand for election. I fear this will continue for quite some time.
But then, a few years ago, no one would have imagined this country electing a black man as President. There is hope.
Edited by AZPaul3, : I changed something, of course.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-15-2015 1:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 48 of 777 (747422)
01-15-2015 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taq
01-14-2015 7:00 PM


Re: It's hard to modify Constitutions
I am unaware of anyone in recent history being forced out of public office or an election for being an atheist. People saying that you are unfit for office does not violate any constitutional rights.
Just this past year, that US Air Force Tech Sergeant whose reenlistment was being denied because, as an atheist, he crossed out "so help me God" in the oath as he may choose to do under Title 10, but which the new (Oct 2013) Air Force Instruction (AFI) did not allow. If a humanist organization had not publicized his situation, the Air Force would not have referred their complaints to Legal, that new AFI would not have been recognized as illegal and unconstitutional, and we would have lost a loyal airman.
Again:
http://www.theguardian.com/...force-atheist-airman-reeinlist
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...e-god-from-enlistment-oaths
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...e-god-from-enlistment-oaths
While military service is not a public office, it is a public trust which is covered under Article VI's "no religious test" clause. And this incident does demonstrate that laws and regulations that discriminate against atheists have indeed been used very recently against atheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Taq, posted 01-14-2015 7:00 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 01-15-2015 1:42 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 49 of 777 (747444)
01-15-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tangle
01-15-2015 6:31 AM


Re: Reppin Atheists
As an atheist in the USA, I can say I face derision and and expressions of hate quite often. Some of my wife's family is quite religious and I can be treated as the family embarrassment.
Most of my own family is not religious, but I am looked at as a questionable person at times. Even though I am happily married with two children and as moral as most people I know.
Even among friends that have no religiosity I can be looked at funny because I readily admit my atheism. Atheism is the modern scarlet letter in the USA.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2015 6:31 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 50 of 777 (747466)
01-15-2015 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by AZPaul3
01-15-2015 8:57 AM


Re: The Larger Issue
AZPaul3 writes:
At present there is only one acknowledged atheist in the US Congress. Kyrsten Sinema, Congresswoman from Arizona’s hotbed of liberalism, east Phoenix and Scottsdale.
Hey hey....don't take this away from my town buddy! Kyrsten Sinema is the Representative from my district in the Heart of Tempe!!! Well, and Mesa and Chandler.....but importantly TEMPE!!!!!! Them Snobsdale peeps had minimal effect on getting her elected as the district ends at Thomas and 64th Street.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

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 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2015 8:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 51 of 777 (747468)
01-15-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-15-2015 1:23 PM


Re: The Larger Issue
I stand corrected, T12C. My apologies. And good job!

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 52 of 777 (747473)
01-15-2015 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by dwise1
01-15-2015 11:17 AM


Re: It's hard to modify Constitutions
Just this past year, that US Air Force Tech Sergeant whose reenlistment was being denied because, as an atheist, he crossed out "so help me God" in the oath as he may choose to do under Title 10, but which the new (Oct 2013) Air Force Instruction (AFI) did not allow. If a humanist organization had not publicized his situation, the Air Force would not have referred their complaints to Legal, that new AFI would not have been recognized as illegal and unconstitutional, and we would have lost a loyal airman.
I thought we were talking about state laws that banned atheists from elected office?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by dwise1, posted 01-15-2015 11:17 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 53 of 777 (747474)
01-15-2015 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tangle
01-15-2015 6:31 AM


Re: Reppin Atheists
Not remotely. Nobody gives a hoot in the UK. It never comes up in day to day conversation.
That's because you kicked out all of the religious nutters from your country and sent them to us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2015 6:31 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 54 of 777 (747475)
01-15-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
01-15-2015 1:44 PM


Re: Reppin Atheists
Taq writes:
That's because you kicked out all of the religious nutters from your country and sent them to us.
Only the ones that for some reason just wouldn't burn....
Sorry.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 01-15-2015 1:44 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 55 of 777 (747478)
01-15-2015 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Tangle
01-15-2015 4:05 AM


Re: It's hard to modify Constitutions
If an unlawful law is kept on the state books and used occasionally - although ineffectually, the state is signalling to its citizens that although it's been overruled, it still believes its law is legitimate.
The law wasn't used, and the anti-atheist laws have not been used in recent memory. Sure, there is some anti-atheist sabre rattling, but that is not unconstitutional.
In fact, the public was probably given an important civics lesson that the anti-atheists probably didn't want taught. The public learned that these laws can not be enacted without violating a person's constitutional rights.
But it does seem that in at least one case, the law was attempted to be used.
It wasn't even attempted. Attempting to use the law would require them to submit preliminary papers to the courts to have the atheist removed from office. No papers were even filed. There was no attempt to use the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2015 4:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 56 of 777 (747485)
01-15-2015 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Taq
01-15-2015 1:42 PM


Re: It's hard to modify Constitutions
It's the same mentality as such state laws and demonstrates the effects of enforcing them. The other difference is that procedures are in place to modify AFIs on a regular basis, removing and/or replacing parts that are found to not work.
But mainly, it shows the will of Christians to enforce laws and rules against atheists regardless of the negative impact that it has on people (OK, so maybe they believe us atheists to be sub-human or something). And the only thing preventing them from acting on their hatred of atheists is that doing so is prohibited by federal law (eg, Title 10 in this case) and the US Constitution. At least when it's about holding a public office or a public trust (eg, military service). I do not doubt that atheists have been made to suffer in the private sector and continue to at the hands of "true Christians."
PS
I just had to repeat myself there. Here's the part of my message that you left out of your quoting:
DWise1 writes:
While military service is not a public office, it is a public trust which is covered under Article VI's "no religious test" clause. And this incident does demonstrate that laws and regulations that discriminate against atheists have indeed been used very recently against atheists.
Edited by dwise1, : PS

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 57 of 777 (747502)
01-15-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taq
01-15-2015 1:50 PM


Re: It's hard to modify Constitutions
Taq writes:
The law wasn't used, and the anti-atheist laws have not been used in recent memory. Sure, there is some anti-atheist sabre rattling, but that is not unconstitutional.
I agree. But it is the case that the guy from NAACP (who I also had to look up, is indeed a nutter) was able to wave the law about. We're not talking about a right to kill Welshmen with a bow and arrow here.
But, I accept that the laws are defunct and are unlikely to be a real problem. Still, I'd like them to be repealed if I lived in one of those states - just to show that they care (but of course they don't).

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taq, posted 01-15-2015 1:50 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 58 of 777 (747506)
01-15-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
01-15-2015 5:49 AM


Bothwell was threatened with legal action but it never happened. He seems like an interesting bloke.
If the archaic law were not on the books, some other pretext would have been used to make a fuss.
Politics as usual in the USA.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2015 5:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 59 of 777 (747508)
01-15-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Tangle
01-15-2015 2:32 PM


trying to put general education in the US in evidence
You need to remember that it is unlikely that even one percent of a State's population have ever read their Constitution.
Let me step aside for a second and see if I can give a short example of the extent apathy in the US when it comes to such matters.
Some background.
The US Naval Academy is located in Annapolis, Maryland. Annapolis is also the State Capital and at one time the US Capital.
One major sporting even held annually in Maryland is the Preakness, the second race in the US Triple Crown for horses.
Maryland has a State anthem. The first verse says:
The despot's heel is on thy shore,
Maryland! My Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore
That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be the battle queen of yore,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Now the song was written during the US Civil War and the Despot mentioned is Abraham Lincoln and the torch was the Federal Troops and Navy that held the city and port under Marshall law.
So to the funny part.
Each year before the start of the Preakness the US Naval Academy Glee Club sings Maryland! My Maryland!
No one objects or comments that it is a subversive tome and Federal Troops are singing a song written to condemn Federal Troops and the Federal Government.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 60 of 777 (747582)
01-16-2015 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Tangle
01-15-2015 2:32 PM


Re: It's hard to modify Constitutions
I agree. But it is the case that the guy from NAACP (who I also had to look up, is indeed a nutter) was able to wave the law about. We're not talking about a right to kill Welshmen with a bow and arrow here.
But, I accept that the laws are defunct and are unlikely to be a real problem. Still, I'd like them to be repealed if I lived in one of those states - just to show that they care (but of course they don't).
The way I view it, getting rid of the law that no one enforces does nothing. The existence of the law is not causing anti-atheist sentiments. As the old saying goes, that would be the tail wagging the dog. Even if we get rid of the law the anti-atheist sentiments are still there.
In fact, I almost prefer having those laws on the books. It provides for the ultimate face off. "You don't like atheists in office? Fine. Enforce the law. I dare you." Good way to end the discussion, IMHO.

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Replies to this message:
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