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Author Topic:   A fatal logical flaw in creationism?
TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 214 (100285)
04-15-2004 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Denesha
04-15-2004 3:25 AM


Im sure you didn't, but then again the reply was not for you, it was a reply to gman.
...Though this reply is for you even though you didn't want it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Denesha, posted 04-15-2004 3:25 AM Denesha has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 214 (101289)
04-20-2004 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by HoonWoo
03-13-2004 9:14 AM


There had to be a first!
Yes,but do you understand that there had to be a first?
God is too great to try to lower to our own understanding.
To you perhaps being proud and puffed up is a good trait,but,
it's a sign of ignorance to me.

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by HoonWoo, posted 03-13-2004 9:14 AM HoonWoo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by HoonWoo, posted 04-20-2004 6:47 PM desdamona has replied
 Message 34 by :æ:, posted 04-20-2004 7:23 PM desdamona has replied

HoonWoo
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 214 (101331)
04-20-2004 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by desdamona
04-20-2004 4:40 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
Why couldn't you consider that Gods are human creations in the first place?
We created many gods
But one god tries to rule us all!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 4:40 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 8:54 PM HoonWoo has not replied

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 34 of 214 (101334)
04-20-2004 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by desdamona
04-20-2004 4:40 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
desdamona writes:
Yes,but do you understand that there had to be a first?
No, there doesn't have to have been a first anything. Let me illustrate with gman's post #8 in this thread:
gman writes:
If we assume that time actually exists as we perceive it to exist, (A linear series of events moving from past to future) then time must have a starting point. Otherwise we would never have reached the present moment because an infinite number of events would have already happened in the past...and infinity can't end.
This demonstrates a certain naivete of relativity theory and the various ways of describing infinities. There is nothing irrational about the idea of an infinite number of temporal moments in our past because time is not discrete -- it's continuous (think: space-time continuum). All continuous intervals are infinite, even if they are bounded. The last hour had an infinite number of temporal moments in it, and so did the last minute, and the last second for that matter. Even so, there's no rule that says infinite sets cannot have a least or greatest element. The points on a closed continous interval comprise an infinite set with BOTH a greatest and least element, for example.
The argument that an infinite number of temporal moments cannot have passed for the reason that "infinities don't end" is easily overcome by some elementary training in set theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 4:40 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 8:57 PM :æ: has replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 214 (101352)
04-20-2004 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by HoonWoo
04-20-2004 6:47 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
I can't believe it because it would be a great burden on the backs
of all humans.We need someone to care for us and look after us.
We need to know that someone is in complete control.
How can man save man from man?

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by HoonWoo, posted 04-20-2004 6:47 PM HoonWoo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by :æ:, posted 04-20-2004 10:23 PM desdamona has replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 214 (101353)
04-20-2004 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by :æ:
04-20-2004 7:23 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
God is infinite and he doesn't need time.
People cannot be omni-present.We cannot ever know all things.
It takes faith to be a christian and it takes faith to be an
evolutionist.They both require faith.

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by :æ:, posted 04-20-2004 7:23 PM :æ: has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by :æ:, posted 04-20-2004 10:20 PM desdamona has replied

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 37 of 214 (101377)
04-20-2004 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by desdamona
04-20-2004 8:57 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
desdamona writes:
God is infinite and he doesn't need time.
People cannot be omni-present.We cannot ever know all things.
It takes faith to be a christian and it takes faith to be an
evolutionist.They both require faith.
Do you have anything to say that actually addresses my statements?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 8:57 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 11:37 PM :æ: has replied

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 38 of 214 (101378)
04-20-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by desdamona
04-20-2004 8:54 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
desdamona writes:
I can't believe it because it would be a great burden on the backs of all humans.
You do realize that the burden it might incur on humans is completely irrelevant to the truth of the matter, don't you?
We need someone to care for us and look after us.
Please speak for yourself. I'm doing quite well looking after myself, thank you very much.
We need to know that someone is in complete control.
Again, you might like to think that "someone is in complete control," however I have never found it necessary.
How can man save man from man?
I'm not convinced that men NEED to be saved from men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 8:54 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 11:34 PM :æ: has replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 214 (101394)
04-20-2004 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by :æ:
04-20-2004 10:23 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
Hey,hey,hey,hey, I am not directing this at you personally.
It's just that to me,in my honest opinion,God is a plus,and to be loved so much no matter who we are or what we have ever done is a great relief.
People are sometimes very unforgiving,not all,but some,and it helps me sleep better at night knowing I don't have to be perfect or live up to some one else's idea of perfection.
I've been in alot of bad..... I mean bad relationships where people just wanted to own me and boss me around,and shove their ideas of right and wrong down my throat or they would beat up on me if I didn't accept them and so forth.
The threat of violence always hung over my head,so I am glad that there is a God,and that there will be justice,but that is what works for my world,I didn't mean to imply that it works for all people or everyone,I just wanted to know if anyone considered the possibility,that there had to be a first,or that there was a first?

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by :æ:, posted 04-20-2004 10:23 PM :æ: has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by :æ:, posted 04-21-2004 12:15 AM desdamona has replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 214 (101396)
04-20-2004 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by :æ:
04-20-2004 10:20 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
yes I do,but I forgot what it was.
Do you mean that creationists have it all wrong?

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by :æ:, posted 04-20-2004 10:20 PM :æ: has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by :æ:, posted 04-21-2004 12:17 AM desdamona has replied

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 41 of 214 (101404)
04-21-2004 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by desdamona
04-20-2004 11:34 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
desdamona writes:
Hey,hey,hey,hey, I am not directing this at you personally.
Then perhaps you should consider using "I" as the subject of your sentences instead of "we."
The threat of violence always hung over my head,so I am glad that there is a God...
...hanging the threat of violence over your head.
I just wanted to know if anyone considered the possibility,that there had to be a first,or that there was a first?
The possibility has been considered, and so far nothing requires that there is one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 11:34 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by desdamona, posted 04-21-2004 12:40 AM :æ: has not replied

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 42 of 214 (101405)
04-21-2004 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by desdamona
04-20-2004 11:37 PM


Re: There had to be a first!
desdamona writes:
Do you mean that creationists have it all wrong?
While that is something I believe, that is not what my statements signified.
I mean that the argument that there MUST be a so-called "First Cause" since time allegedly cannot be infinite in the past is a faulty one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 11:37 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by desdamona, posted 04-21-2004 12:48 AM :æ: has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 214 (101409)
04-21-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by :æ:
04-21-2004 12:15 AM


Re: There had to be a first!
Does this give your life more joy and purpose?
It's so clear that people can view the world so differently,and
yet still be very happy with their own personal view of it.
I believe there is a God,you may not,but that doesn't mean one person
is less valuable than the other to me.
I believe personally there had to be a first,and you do not,but I am
not threatened by you view.

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by :æ:, posted 04-21-2004 12:15 AM :æ: has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 214 (101414)
04-21-2004 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by :æ:
04-21-2004 12:17 AM


Re: There had to be a first!
Do you believe the bible has any credibility?
I do,and The book of Genesis tells us that in the beginning,GOD.
This is the greatest reason I believe there had to be a first,and my
experiences.
God made everything complete,and perfect,but man listened to satan,
and things have been distorted ever since.
I realize that you do not accept this as the truth,but can you explain why you believe that God may not exist?
I believe that every individual is not exactly the same even in a certain group with those of a simular view.
Christians don't see everything exactly the same.
Is there a reason why you really don't believe there had to be a first besides the whole evolutionary idea?

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by :æ:, posted 04-21-2004 12:17 AM :æ: has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by HoonWoo, posted 04-21-2004 1:47 PM desdamona has replied

HoonWoo
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 214 (101570)
04-21-2004 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by desdamona
04-21-2004 12:48 AM


Re: There had to be a first!
Is there any good reason to believe there is a first (or God) apart from the fact that you NEED a God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by desdamona, posted 04-21-2004 12:48 AM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by desdamona, posted 04-21-2004 5:45 PM HoonWoo has replied

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