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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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jar writes: But the important part, the "honest" part, is that he understands that it is a matter of his belief while there are those who would claim that they "know". Sure, I get that. But he's doing what most 'ordinary' believers do, rationalise away the difficult bits of the bible and hope that his fluffier version turns out to be correct - even though it's a pure invention. There's a YouGuv poll out today that tells us that 75% of Irish people believe in Heaven but less than half believe in hell. ie, pick the bits you'd like to believe. But saying "I don't know" to the question about whether a good person can be sent to hell should really set all sorts of alarm bells off.Basically the "don't know" answer followed by some wishful thinking, tells me some difficult problems are being avoided - not least the fact that the bible itself is pretty clear on the fact. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Basically the "don't know" answer followed by some wishful thinking, tells me some difficult problems are being avoided - not least the fact that the bible itself is pretty clear on the fact. Have you ever read the Bible? If so, then you should realize that the Bible is very seldom clear about anything. It is filled with inconsistencies, contradictions and factual errors. The author of John might be clear, but that is NOT "the Bible". A great example is to follow the changes made in the Great Commission (the charges Jesus placed on the Disciples) over time.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But saying "I don't know" to the question about whether a good person can be sent to hell should really set all sorts of alarm bells off. GDR did not say that he did not know whether a good person could be sent to hell. Given his beliefs, how could he have given that response? You asked instead whether a good non-believing person could go to heaven. Totally different question.
not least the fact that the bible itself is pretty clear on the fact. Is it? The Bible makes it clear that it ain't easy to get to heaven, even for those who profess love for Jesus.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
jar writes: Have you ever read the Bible? Of course I have. many times.
If so, then you should realize that the Bible is very seldom clear about anything. It is filled with inconsistencies, contradictions and factual errors. Yes, I agree, obviously the bible is tosh. But that's not much of a defence is it? It's wrong but I believe it anyway. er, which bits do you believe? Answer, the bits that suit me and the interpretation I've made for myself.
The author of John might be clear, but that is NOT "the Bible". And neither, as Larni says, is Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." So just what IS the bible - Answer, again, the bits you've rationalised and choose to believe Whatever - you're still left with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters, it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately. The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: GDR did not say that he did not know whether a good person could be sent to hell. This is what I asked:
Tangle writes: So which is it, do I, as a decent bloke, but an atheist, get to go to heaven or not? This is what he answered
The direct answer is I have no idea, but if you read my last post it would be obvious that I don't see you being excluded from life with God based on your theological beliefs. Is it? The Bible makes it clear that it ain't easy to get to heaven, even for those who profess love for Jesus. Yes, it's clear that the bible expects a person to believe in Christ in order to get into heaven.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So just what IS the bible - Answer, again, the bits you've rationalised and choose to believe No, the Bible is a collection, an anthology, of what the authors of the particular passage believed at a given time in history and within a given mythos.
Whatever - you're still left with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters, it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately. Well no, I am not left "with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters," and don't believe that "it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately". As a very good friend on mine, an Episcopal Priest said "Hell? Fuggitabutit!"
The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it. If that is true, then you have NOT been listening.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
This is what he answered The direct answer is I have no idea, but if you read my last post it would be obvious that I don't see you being excluded from life with God based on your theological beliefs. Your assumption is that if you are not going to heaven you are going to hell. That's a bad assumption in my view.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
How can a God be unfair by our standards and still be regarded as moral by us? If morality is defined as anything a god decides is moral for him, it serves no purpose for us. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not nomally regarded as the Christian message. That depends who you ask. Zwingli, for example, the father of the Swiss reformation, wrote: "When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself, because he does not break any law. For God is under no law, and therefore cannot sin."
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
No Nukes writes: Your assumption is that if you are not going to heaven you are going to hell. That's a bad assumption in my view. And again no. I am an atheist, so my presumption is that when I die I am going nowhere. However, I don't have to assume anything on behalf of GDR because GDR has already told us that his belief is that hell is not being in heaven.
GDR writes: If I had to guess, I think that hell is likely pretty similar to our current existence which is largely driven by selfish desires, whereas life with God is a life in a truly altruistic society. That, of course, is not what every Christian believes. But then, as I say, they can pick what they prefer.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
However, I don't have to assume anything on behalf of GDR because GDR has already told us that his belief is that hell is not being in heaven. In short, there is no hell. What do you believe happens to you when you die? If that ends up being your fate but not GDR's fate, what evil has been done to you?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Grim writes: Or...God exists regardless of what people do or don't believe regarding His existence. ..."A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system... Of course, critics would then ask me why I expected said God to be the Christian One...in which case I would only be able to say that I met Jesus...which then leads to my belief that all people on earth will meet Jesus some day. But again, how do I explain and/or defend my belief further?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
No, the Bible is a collection, an anthology, of what the authors of the particular passage believed at a given time in history and within a given mythos. So you don't think its possible that authors could be inspired from a source apart from themselves?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
No Nukes writes:
In short, there is no hell. Well GDR can speak for himself, I have no wish or reason to represent him. However, the idea that hell is a seperation from god, rather than a pit of fire is fairly common - particularly amongst Catholics. But it would be an error to think that this is not a 'real' hell. The concept isn't of oblivion, it's of the torment of not being with god, which is the very worst thing imaginable, apparently. Jehova's Witnesses have utterly different ideas and don't accept hell at all. Christians can apparently believe anything they like about it - and find a defence for it in the bible - or their imaginations and revelations.
What do you believe happens to you when you die? When I die, i'll rot and nothing else will happen to me.
If that ends up being your fate but not GDR's fate, what evil has been done to you? I will have been deprived of everlasting happiness - or whatever it turns out to be. And if GDR is wrong and Faith and Purple are corrent, I will suffer everlasting agony. So it goes. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It is irrelevant. Since the authors each present different stories, often mutually exclusive stories it is clear that the inspiration was either faulty or inconsistent.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Jar writes: If that is true, then you have NOT been listening. Not been listening to whom? Faith, Purple, GDR, You? Who? You all believe different things and I listen to you all. Who should I believe? is a better question. Sadly it's none of you until you can stump up a reason to pick between y'all. (And of course, these views are simply a handful of non-representative Christians; it necessarily excludes other Christian versions whose views vary widely - and all other religious ideas of life after death.) Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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