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Author Topic:   If god can do anything he wants...
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 50 (77573)
01-10-2004 12:28 PM


I asked this on the "messages in the bible thread". But I think it's an important enugh question to have it's own thread. Basically, I have been searching for an answer to why God necessitates so much bloodshed and atrocity in the old testament.
I eventually came to this quandry, not to unlike the Epicurian Dilema.
Anyway,
If god is all powerfull, then all options are open to him. He could just as easely correct peoples behevior in the world non-violently as he could violently. Again he is all powerfull.
So if this is the case, it means he chooses violence. That this is his method of choice, is a choice made by his particular desire. Thus, he likes setting men at each others throats.
Isreals rampages in the OT are a perfect example of this.
God could have got his work done anyway he chose. Including non-violent and constructive methods. Yet it was his desire, to shed as much blood as possible.
Conclusion: God is a sadistic, and murderous one.
Any takers?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 24 by scottyranks, posted 02-08-2004 2:18 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 35 by P e t e r, posted 02-09-2004 1:16 AM Yaro has replied
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 50 (77589)
01-10-2004 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
01-10-2004 12:28 PM


god of the war room
Yaro:
Apparently this god to whom you refer is not all powerful and the claim that he is falls short of the truth. Apparently the claim is just some braggard blowhard propaganda by his syncophants because as you can plainly see throughout the texts this so-called omnipotent god requires mankind to facilitate his plan, prove his superior but limited power, and eventually disappoint him to an extent that results in their falling from his limited favor and perishing for their failure to prove his omnipotence.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 50 (77607)
01-10-2004 3:30 PM


Bloodshed, suffering, persecution, warings, deception and all the rest of that bad stuff is all about the mystery of iniquity which, according to the Bible, exists in God's universe. It states that a large number of existing entities in the universe rebelled against God with Satan as the head and ringleader of it.
1. But why, will someone ask, didn't God simply program into creatures of his the inability to rebel or disobey? The only guess that I would have in answer is that in creation of intelligent creatures of the universe, including man, God didn't have mental robots in mind programmed to work like machines, but wanted creatures who like their
God could be creative, make decisions and who would choose to follow, love and obey their maker.
2. So since certain creatures chose to rebel, what to do now? Again my guess is that this planet earth was created specifically for that purpose. It is to be the demise of these in a just manner, for it is here on this earth to where Satan is cast to from Heaven (see Revelation 12) and where his host wind up. It is here where he is taken in the end and cast into the eternal lake of fire. This popular idea that Satan is now in charge of hell or exists there is nonsense and unscriptural. The demons/angels of satan "believe and tremble," we are told.
3. Now how does this relate to suffering bloodshed and all that goes with it? I believe the host of heaven witness what's going on on earth and this is the place to demonstrate to the host of heaven what the fruits of rebellion/evil/Satan produce and what will be the end result for rebellion in the universe. Thus evil and rebellion will be rooted out of the universe. Note that no intellectual being is ever anihilated who have eternal souls in the universe but are eternal beings including mankind, having a soul and being made in the very image of God the creator. Thus the existence of both eternal heaven and eternal hell.
4. Warfare is never without bloodshed, suffering and death. The Bible is the only resonable explanation for the evility of evil which exists in the world.
There you have it. The buz hypothesis of the mystery of evil and the good, as I understand the implications and statements of the Bible to suggest. Please understand, this is not a buz dogmatism but is hypothetical.

Replies to this message:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 4 of 50 (77863)
01-11-2004 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
01-10-2004 3:30 PM


why is there so much violence in the OT?
just a thought...the isrealites were a relatively uninfluential and almost powerless group of people with the egyptians, hittites, and other more powerful kingdoms of the eastern med controling everything in the area. hardly any archeological proof has shown the conquest stories of the isrealites in the OT to be factual occurances. so, when isreal actually gained a little autonomy and power, they had to tell their people that they had a heritage of conquest. it only makes sense in an area where all of the other dominate cultures had similar conquest stories. these stories gave isreali leaders legitimacy in an area rife with war and conquest. it is not unusual for cultures to make up stories relating to who has power to conquer who. ramses (sorry if i spelled that incorrectly) did it, hitler did it, the romans did it, etc. the only problem i see with the violence in the OT is that it didn't happen and we are still arguing about it. i think the OT is a beautiful piece of literature that tells us about what the people in power in isreali thought and wanted their people to think. of course, greek and roman and scandenavian and babylonian and other primative cultures had beautiful myths also.

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 50 (77870)
01-11-2004 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
01-10-2004 3:30 PM


Nicely put buzsaw.

Bible
Search Results
"love" was found 865 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Love

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 6 of 50 (77892)
01-11-2004 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
01-11-2004 8:53 PM


love?
how was love used in all of your findings?
how many sentences can you make with the word love?
how many times have other authors used the word love in their works?
what else does the bible say that has nothing to do with love?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 50 (77897)
01-12-2004 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
01-10-2004 12:28 PM


"Can God make a stone so big he can't lift it"
Here is an old question for discussion. My answer to it is this:
God could choose to make a rock that He could not lift. God being the Creator, He could then uncreate this same rock, thus proving His Omnipotence. God is the original source of definition and creation. Thus, He could make such a rock. Lets get deeper. What can't God do? Well...I have heard that, by definition through the Bible, God cannot lie. So this is one thing He cannot do. He also cannot cease to exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 01-10-2004 12:28 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 01-12-2004 1:13 AM Phat has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 8 of 50 (77901)
01-12-2004 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
01-12-2004 12:56 AM


Your post sidesteps my question.
I am questioning gods methodology. The viability of gods power is a given here. We are assuming an omnipotent god. Now, if this god is omnipotent, why does he choose this methodology?
Any creationists wanna go?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 01-12-2004 2:19 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 10 by grace2u, posted 01-12-2004 3:38 PM Yaro has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 50 (77904)
01-12-2004 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
01-12-2004 1:13 AM


What methodology?
Yaro...you have a good point. I see Genesis as more than a mere fable, yet I also see validity in many scientific arguments for the origin of life. I respect the scientists who are also aware of an Omnipotant Creator, so in a sense, I may be guilty of confirmation bias. I guess I will ask you to tell us your answer to your own question, Yaro. It is all a wonderful mystery for me!

This message is a reply to:
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grace2u
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 50 (78061)
01-12-2004 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
01-12-2004 1:13 AM


To question Gods methodology is to say that you have a standard by which to judge Gods actions by. What is this standard you are using and where do you suppose it came from? You are bound to either say that you are the standard(you and your own ability to reason-presupposed to be imperfect) or God is the standard(presupposed and evidenced to be the perfect standard)
The problem with your question is that it is easily answered within the context of Christian theology and is an irrational statement unless one assumes a moral God exists.
Explainable within Christian theology:
Imagine that this God is true and does exist as defined through revealed theology. This God then is perfect and is the standard of morality-as he claims. Just as much as he is perfect , all moral and loving, he is also holy, just and righteous. If this God does exist, then he doesn’t lie and therefore man is truly at odds with him- in rebellion if you will. This is evidenced by mans fallen nature. If man commits one sin, he is not perfect and is therefore has rebelled against God- disobeyed his command. So if you are imperfect or even rebellious or hateful towards God, wouldn’t your questioning God have little value and be expected, since he said that you are rebellious and would question him. Furthermore, if God is our standard of morality, who are we to question him doing such things? Especially when we can see some good ultimately come out of these acts(preservation of the Jewish people-allowing the savior to come and save millions, stopping societies that were bent on destroying others or their own, teaching us to trust God, etc). While to you these acts seem irrational and mean or overreactions perhaps, within Christianity these things are consistent with Gods character and explainable within the context of Christiainty. For example, God is Holy in an absolutely serious sense. His holiness is demonstrated by the absolute standard he measures mans actions by. The sins that man commits are not finite in nature, rather they are infinite. Finite beings violating the commands of an infinite being are infinite transgressions. Since you have a standard of morality, and God is this standard, any crime against this infinite being is a crime of infinite scope. So ultimately, the fact that God doesn’t stop everything now and send us all to infinite punishment (fitting the crime of infinite scope) is simply an act of his divine grace, mercy and compassion. Your questioning God is simply a claim on your part to make yourself greater than God. That is, you are saying that you are the standard by which this alleged God should perform all actions of justice, not God. Your evidence for this is your own sense of morality, which can only be explained if there is an absolute standard of morality(something you’d probably deny). If there is no standard of morality, then your statements do not make sense. You are faulting God but compared to what? Your own standard of right and wrong? How do we know that your standard is better than Gods? I assure you that every act of justice God commits in the OT, has a valid and coherent explanation within the greater context of scripture. These acts do not violate Gods nature and ultimately demonstrate the seriousness of sin (foreign to us in our relativistic world) and the holiness of God (his inability to allow violations to simply slide by as an error prone judge might).
Irrational apart from a moral God existing.
The very posing of this problem demonstrates that you have a moral sense of right and wrong. If a moral absolute standard does not exist apart from you(a moral God), then this question is very strange. It might be wrong for an alledged God to do this, however, this God can do whatever he wants since there is no standard of right and wrong. In fact, many crimes committed throughout history by nations are completely fine and ok. Why was Hitler wrong for killing the Jews from your understanding? You are left to say that ultimately He was not wrong, obviously an irrational position. If he was wrong then what do you mean?
We may not understand all of Gods judgments, but we must understand that within Christianity, these actions are His justice. Just as a criminal complains when he gets sentenced and even claims he was innocent, he is simply rebelling against the judge. Likewise, our finite minds make claims of God that are finite and flawed, simply doing as he says we would, rebelling.
The act of grace done through Christ, is an infinite God, making an infinite crime, infinitely pardonable. This is quite simple. Christianity is the only belief system that answers the real problem- mans inability to meat Gods moral standard. While other worldviews leave their followers left attempting to get it right on their own, Christianity teaches that you can not get it right. Only God can and He is our redeemer. This is an infinite amount of love for a finite rebellious being(you and I). Isn’t it interesting that so many people spend so much time arguing against Christianity(not against Islam or any eastern religions)? Simple rebellion against God. Do you find it interesting that the name Jesus Christ is cursed more than any other name through out history?
Take care,
"The moral rectitude of God must consist in a due respect to things that are objects of moral respect; that is, to intelligent beings capable of moral actions and relations. And therefore it must chiefly constist in giving due respect to that Being to whom most is due; for God is infinitely the most worthy of regard. The worthiness of others is as nothing to his; so that to him belongs all possible respect. To him belongs the whole of the respect that any intelligent being is capable of. To him belongs ALL the heart. Therefore, if moral rectitude of heart consists in paying the respect of the heart which is due, or which fitness and suitableness requires, fitness requirees infinitly the greatest regard to be paid to God; and the denying of supreme regard here would be a conduct infinitely the most unfit. Hence it will follow, that moral rectitude of the disposition, inclination, or affection of God CHEIEFLY consists in a regatd to HIMSELF, infinitely above his regard to all other beings; in other words, his holiness consists in this" J. Edwards
[This message has been edited by grace2u, 01-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 01-12-2004 1:13 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 50 (78080)
01-12-2004 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
01-12-2004 1:13 AM


Think Donkey Kong
The Programmer of Donkey Kong knows all. Once the game is initiated, you are in his world, not a world of your making. Your ultimate fate is sealed. Either you will attain perfection, or you will fall to one of the countless stumbling blocks thrown at you. The Programmer is a jealous entity who does not like to share a lot of space with the unclean braggards, with greasy hands, beer on their breath, and tattoos on their arm. So separate yourself from the goyim, keep a clean nose, wear the right clothes, consult the orthodox weathermen to know which way the wind blows. And beware Pan, 'cause the more cleaver and successful you become, the more tricky are the heavenly hosts.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 50 (78086)
01-12-2004 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by hitchy
01-11-2004 11:37 PM


Re: love?
Woah, calm down, didn't know the word love in relation to the Bible could offend you so greatly... I know that there are many ways to use and/or manipulate the word love, that doesn't give me less right to put that in my signature. (Which I changed.) Thought it was some cool saying because of the song Whole Lotta Love going through my mind at the time. What's the problem? What's wrong with a document spreading the message of love?

Has he lost his mind?
Can he see or is he blind?
Can he walk at all,
Or if he moves will he fall?
Is he alive or dead?
Has he thoughts within his head?
We’ll just pass him there
Why should we even care?

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 50 (78087)
01-12-2004 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by hitchy
01-11-2004 11:37 PM


Re: love?
Why are you SO enormously offended?

Has he lost his mind?
Can he see or is he blind?
Can he walk at all,
Or if he moves will he fall?
Is he alive or dead?
Has he thoughts within his head?
We’ll just pass him there
Why should we even care?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by hitchy, posted 01-11-2004 11:37 PM hitchy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 14 of 50 (78149)
01-13-2004 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by grace2u
01-12-2004 3:38 PM


grace2u....
WOW! That was a mouthfull!
Thsnks for that post anyway.I apreciate it. Did you write it all yourself? If you didnt proper credit should be added.
Anyway...
I think your argument rests on an assumption of divine perfection. You view god as a perfect and reichous being who thus forms the standard of morality and that concequently it proves absolute morality given our sense of right and wrong.
This statement finds your quandry:
The very posing of this problem demonstrates that you have a moral sense of right and wrong. If a moral absolute standard does not exist apart from you(a moral God), then this question is very strange. It might be wrong for an alledged God to do this, however, this God can do whatever he wants since there is no standard of right and wrong. In fact, many crimes committed throughout history by nations are completely fine and ok. Why was Hitler wrong for killing the Jews from your understanding? You are left to say that ultimately He was not wrong, obviously an irrational position. If he was wrong then what do you mean?
Your logic here is flawd, as moral absolutes clearly do not exist. Morality is variable, dependent on situation, and social necessity. Morals evolve within societys to preserve their integrity.
Why do you think different societys have such widely varying morals?
Now, as to your hitler question. Hitlers extermination of the Jews was imoral due to its vast disengenuty and its compleat lack of benefit to social order. Infact, genocide, and murder in general are most often conciderd amoral due to the simple fact that as humans we value life. And to preserve society we need each other. What good is killing and murder to society?
A prime example is the infamous Khmer Rouge. They were a communist totalitarian regime that ruled the people with an iron fist. Plenty such govts exist in this world, yet the Khmer Rouge faild miserably.
Why? Killing and brutality were employed so overtly and frequently that they nearly decimated a quarter of their population. The people were so demoralized that they would not work. The punishments were so harsh that the infrastructure and leadership hiarchy broke down do to the actual leaders fleeing for their own lives. As a result the regimes amorality was its own undoing, despite the fact that its govurnmental philosophies were no diffrent than other communist nations.
Ironicaly, it was the Khmer Rouges view of Absolute Morality that caused these killings as was Hitlers. Pol Pot saw all intelectuals as bad. Hitler saw all jews as bad. Absolutes, with no room for variablity, thus their philosophies were destructive faliurs.
Likely, the best illustration of variable morality is the age old question as, If your baby is starving would you steal a loaf of bread to feed it after exausting all other options? Or, Would you kill the man who is about to murder your whole family?
Now, in a broader context killing is wrong. Murder is wrong, yet there are exceptions when taken into specific circumstances.
That is why a judicial system as we have, is so succesfull. We are not simply convicted on the spot, we are tried by our pears. Our actions are weighd by the standards of the society we lived in.
If you killd the man who was about to kill your child, would you be happy to be sent straight to jail? Of cource not, the circumstances would be taken into account.
So you see, absolute Morality does not exist. Infact, when it is instituted, it ultimetly leads to catastrophy. Many of the attrocities thrughout history were performed in the name of absolute morality (a moral god). So even that standard is not without its victims.
This brings us back to my origional question. Yes we are evil, yes god is perfect, he dosnt like our imperfefction, yada yada yada
Lets take that as a given. You still fail to directly explain why god is incapable of solving his problems without bloodshed. An allpowerfull god needs not command pillaging, killing, forced marrige, forced labor, etc. So why does he do it?
You offer that this is just his way of judging. So you are you saying that his choice is an arbitrary one? It just happens to be that thats what he likes to do?
Do you see why I dont understand this? God can do anything, yet he cant solve things without killing people.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 15 of 50 (78244)
01-13-2004 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by joshua221
01-12-2004 7:32 PM


what about love?
i am not offended by the use of the word or concept of love in anything. i was just trying to point out that other pieces of literature talk about love also. everyone talks about love. look at all the love songs ever made. look at the other stuff talked about in the bible as well. it is not all about love so please quit characterizing it as such.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by joshua221, posted 01-12-2004 7:32 PM joshua221 has not replied

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