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Author Topic:   The continuation of art styles through a speculated flood
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 106 of 141 (141954)
09-13-2004 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Rrhain
09-13-2004 1:49 AM


Possibilities and probabilities
No, it doesn't. The possibility does not exist.
I'm not sure, Rrhain, that that is strictly true. It seems to me that there is some non zero chance that they could have started up with the same style just by chance. Of course, this occuring in any one of the cases is astronomically small.
To have occured all over the world is astronomically small squared !
Is that the answer we are given? It could happen by chance? It could happen over and over? It is astonishing what someone can say with a straight face.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Rrhain, posted 09-13-2004 1:49 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 107 of 141 (141961)
09-13-2004 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by NosyNed
09-13-2004 1:57 AM


Re: Possibilities and probabilities
NosyNed responds to me:
quote:
quote:
No, it doesn't. The possibility does not exist.
I'm not sure, Rrhain, that that is strictly true.
With regard to music? How on eath can one possibly learn diatonic music without having been introduced to it at some point? If you ask somebody who has never been introduce to any formal style of music, has never heard any musician anywhere, to come up with a structure of music, he isn't going to develop diatonic Major scales. The only way to get that is to have someone teach it to you.
And the way it is taught to you is by example. You cannot learn Western music without being exposed to it. Each piece of music becomes something to emulate and vary. You will develop your own style, of course, but it will always and forever be influenced by the music you were exposed to as you were learning your craft.
Now, I'm not saying that this comes down to the smallest detail. That is, I'm not saying there is nothing new under the sun and the only reason a composer would come up with E-A-B is because he was steeped in the "holy trinity of rock." I'm talking about large-scale structure. We would naturally expect smaller parts of a musical piece, even though identical, to be arrived at independently.
But nobody is going to re-write "Stairway to Heaven" all on his own without having heard the original.
That's one of the ways we know when the kiddies are cheating on their essay: They turn in the same sentences. Despite the fact that the entire class is generally drawing from the same set of facts, they would only develop identical large scale structure if they were copying from somewhere else.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by NosyNed, posted 09-13-2004 1:57 AM NosyNed has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 108 of 141 (142146)
09-13-2004 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by NosyNed
09-13-2004 1:57 AM


Re: Possibilities and probabilities
It's obvious.
GODDIDIT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by NosyNed, posted 09-13-2004 1:57 AM NosyNed has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 109 of 141 (142195)
09-13-2004 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Rrhain
09-12-2004 2:13 PM


They were Jewish, after all, living on the Western shores of the Mediterranean. Throughout the entire narrative of Genesis up to that point, there is no mention of any civilization outside of the Fertile Crescent area.
"Jews" did not exist until the era of the divided Kingdoms/post Solomon c.930 BC.
The word does not appear in scripture until 2Kings 16 which is still much later.
Your description of "they were Jewish" and placement of this non-existant race in the "Genesis narrative" is an impossibility separated by over 2000 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Rrhain, posted 09-12-2004 2:13 PM Rrhain has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 110 of 141 (142199)
09-13-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Lysimachus
09-11-2004 9:25 PM


Lysimachus:
Please go forward with your stated plan as the topic creator is refuted by his ignorant assumption of when the Jewish race began.
We need a wider Flood topic as this one is too narrow.
WT
Edit:
Surely you cannot defend Wyatt's Mt. Moriah/crucifixion blood dripping on the Ark nonsense ?
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-13-2004 09:07 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Lysimachus, posted 09-11-2004 9:25 PM Lysimachus has replied

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 141 (142218)
09-13-2004 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Rrhain
09-13-2004 1:49 AM


quote:
Please so one way other than humans propensity to kill over philosophic disputes. Most animals do not do that at least.
The similarity exists inside the individual, the Human element which ties us all together.
Possibility.
No Yes No Yes. Whatever no use of continuation is there?
But I am still unsure about the time, I mean your figure cannot be precise (exact) can it?

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Rrhain, posted 09-13-2004 1:49 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 113 by Rrhain, posted 09-15-2004 3:40 AM joshua221 has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 141 (142236)
09-13-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by joshua221
09-13-2004 10:21 PM


But I am still unsure about the time, I mean your figure cannot be precise (exact) can it?
It doesn't have to be precise. The Jomon pottery style lasted from about 14,000BC right up to around 300 BC.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 113 of 141 (142488)
09-15-2004 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by joshua221
09-13-2004 10:21 PM


prophex responds to me:
quote:
But I am still unsure about the time, I mean your figure cannot be precise (exact) can it?
Why not?
Are you saying that archaeologists are so poorly trained that they are incapable of coming up with dates? That the entire field is based upon fraudulent practices? That they're just making things up out of whole cloth?
It isn't like anybody is saying that this particular piece was started on July 24 and finished on October 12, 2734 BCE. The only way we could possibly know that is if it were written on the piece.
You seem to be unwilling to accept the possibility that archaeologists are actually good at what they do.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by joshua221, posted 09-13-2004 10:21 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 115 by joshua221, posted 09-15-2004 10:13 PM Rrhain has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 114 of 141 (142581)
09-15-2004 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Rrhain
09-15-2004 3:40 AM


Yet, he accepts the British-israeli claims, all without evidence.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 141 (142630)
09-15-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Rrhain
09-15-2004 3:40 AM


quote:
You seem to be unwilling to accept the possibility that archaeologists are actually good at what they do.
trivial

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Rrhain, posted 09-15-2004 3:40 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Rrhain, posted 09-16-2004 2:42 AM joshua221 has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 141 (142632)
09-15-2004 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ramoss
09-15-2004 5:25 PM


quote:
Yet, he accepts the British-israeli claims, all without evidence.
Would you like to engage in a discussion? Then reply to me next time. I don't know, seems kind of lame to make a reply like this.

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ramoss, posted 09-15-2004 5:25 PM ramoss has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 117 of 141 (142637)
09-15-2004 10:32 PM


Good discussion?
Did any of the last three posts contribute anything at all to the discussion? Were they in anyway necessary?

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 118 of 141 (142647)
09-16-2004 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by joshua221
09-15-2004 10:13 PM


prophex responds to me:
quote:
quote:
You seem to be unwilling to accept the possibility that archaeologists are actually good at what they do.
trivial
Thank you for proving my point.
Now you're saying that archaeology is so simple that even someone without any training can do it.
Is there any scientific profession that touches upon humanity at some point that you don't find to be without merit?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by joshua221, posted 09-15-2004 10:13 PM joshua221 has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 119 of 141 (142671)
09-16-2004 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rrhain
09-07-2004 1:56 AM


Are you seriously saying that physics is wrong? The exact same physics that allows us to go to the moon, put geosynchronous satellites in orbit, create computer systems that can connect across the world, etc., etc., all that stuff is just a fake?
just for argument's sake, the reason the ptolemiac solar system model wasn't changed for about 2000 years was because it reasonably accurately predicted the orbits of the planets. i could probablem even put a man on the surface of mars using it. it's not right, though.
There's a flood going on right now in Florida.
i'm in florida. i don't see a flood anywhere.
quote:
We have the remains of Noah's Ark in Dogaboyazit Turkeys.
No, you don't.
well that was a real elegant rebuttal. what the heck is that thing anyways? i remember seeing good evidence somewhere it couldn't have been an ark... but what is it?
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 09-16-2004 07:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2004 1:56 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Rrhain, posted 09-19-2004 6:28 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 121 by ramoss, posted 09-20-2004 8:36 AM arachnophilia has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 120 of 141 (143242)
09-19-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by arachnophilia
09-16-2004 8:39 AM


Arachnophilia responds to me:
quote:
just for argument's sake, the reason the ptolemiac solar system model wasn't changed for about 2000 years was because it reasonably accurately predicted the orbits of the planets.
Well, no, it didn't. Only if one's opinion about "accurate" lasted a brief amount of time. The introduction of epicycles upon epicycles (up to 28 for some planets) was hardly convincing. It was "good enough" in the sense that nobody else had anything.
Even when Copernicus revived Aristarchus' heliocentric system, he used circular orbits which required epicycles (even more than Ptolemy).
It literally took until Kepler to understand the elliptical nature of planetary motion to develop an ephemeris that is even close to being "reasonably accurate" for significant lengths of time.
quote:
i could probablem even put a man on the surface of mars using it.
Most likely, you couldn't. Ptolemaic astromony is a linear system and going to Mars requires some understanding of relativistic physics because you are going fast enough to have it show some effects. We've already seen a probe bounce off the atmosphere because of errors in approach.
And that doesn't begin to deal with the circular nature of the orbits that the Ptolemaic system posits. The Ptolemaic system might be able to tell you where in the visual field Mars is with respect to Earth, but that's a lousy indicator of where Mars physically is with respect to the Sun.
quote:
quote:
There's a flood going on right now in Florida.
i'm in florida. i don't see a flood anywhere.
You prove my point.
quote:
quote:
quote:
We have the remains of Noah's Ark in Dogaboyazit Turkeys.
No, you don't.
well that was a real elegant rebuttal.
I thought so. It was on the same level of evidence-presentation as the original claim. If his degree of rigor was acceptable to make a claim, then it should be sufficient to counter it.
quote:
what the heck is that thing anyways?
Most think it's a rock outcropping.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by arachnophilia, posted 09-16-2004 8:39 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by arachnophilia, posted 09-21-2004 6:35 PM Rrhain has replied

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