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Author Topic:   Fahrenheit 9/11
custard
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 162 (121122)
07-02-2004 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by contracycle
07-02-2004 5:09 AM


No, you are completely and severely mistaken I'm afraid.
Actually, I'm not since I worked in the signals intelligence field for four years; I have a pretty good, first hand knowledge of how this works.
I was trying to enlighten you about a few things, but since you seem unwilling to listen or learn, my efforts are wasted. This is pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by contracycle, posted 07-02-2004 5:09 AM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 162 (121123)
07-02-2004 5:36 AM


Well then the world has substantially less to fear from the US than I had thought.

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 108 of 162 (121240)
07-02-2004 3:25 PM


With all this question of encryption and decipering messages from Bush to others at the White House, it suddenly occured to me... Maybe the reason I haven't understood what this guy is talking about is that it's all been encrypted.
That would certainly explain a constant use of the word Nukular. I kept thinking that meant nuclear, but there was nothing related to that at all in Iraq, and since he MUST be right it must have meant something else. Maybe it meant invisible?
This message has been edited by holmes, 07-02-2004 02:27 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 162 (121614)
07-03-2004 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
06-25-2004 1:01 PM


Back on topic.
Well, now that I have seen the movie, maybe I should give my opinion on it. Remember that my opinion isn't necessary going to be unbiased, being on the radical left.
I "enjoyed" Faranheit 9/11, if "enjoy" is the correct word to use, in view of the tragic nature of the subject (war and all). Nonetheless, I thought it was a very good movie.
There were very little surprises in the movie. Almost everything thing in the movie has been pointed out and discussed in the alternative media for years. The only thing new that I picked up were how violent the demonstrations against Bush's inaugeration were (I remember simply reading that they decided to forgo the traditional walk to the White House as a simple precautionary measure). I was also surprised to hear the Karzai, our manager stationed in Kabul, was connected to Unocal.
The movie was not journalism -- it has the same relationship to a documentary as a Gore Vidal essay has to print journalism. It was not meant to be a fair and dispassioned examination of the facts. It is polemic. It, I think, is mainly for the consumption of those who, like me, share more or less the same views. If anyone else is given something to think about, very well and good, but I think it is a film meant to "rally the troops", to use a perhaps unfortunate metaphor. Those on the right will simply be even more convinced that the "liberal left" are a bunch of deranged traitors that need some kind of supervision if they aren't going to hurt themselves or others.
As far as specific points in the film, I did not get the impression that Moore was criticizing Bush for spending too much time reading to the grade school class on 9/11. Maybe he was and I'm just too dense to pick up on it. I got the impression that he was using the incident as a vehicle to ask his questions about Bush's policies -- why he seemed to ignore intelligence indicating an imminent terrorist attack, why his subsequent actions look so...odd in regard to some of his friendships and business relationships.
When talking about the Florida elections, I'm glad he didn't say much about the recount nonsense and "hanging chads" -- in my opinion, that is a relatively trivial point of the whole election. Far more serious was how many, many African-Americans and ex-felons suddenly found that their names disappeared from the voting rolls.
When mentioning Afghanistan, I am surprised that he didn't mention that the Loya Jurga wanted to discuss alternate leadership of a newly "liberated" Afghanistan, including vesting the former king as chief of state, but was forced to only consider Karzai under U.S. pressure. It seems strange -- the subsequent news conference with Karzai being flanked by two U.S. representatives would have been, I thought, a classic Moore moment.
One big, big criticism I have for the movie is that Moore criticizes how Congress, and the Democrats, went along with Bush's war on terrorism without much of a protest or discussion. He, for some reason, fails to include Kerry in this. But I think I know the reason: Moore, and the rest of the liberal end of the political movement, are on a defeat Bush at any and all cost campaign. I guess I should try to define what a liberal means, but it seems to be "vote Democrat, no matter what the policies of the person in question are, no matter how much or little of an improvement the son of a b***h would actually be."
But overall, I felt the movie is definitely worth seeing, with the caveats I mentioned. It uses a lot of black humor, which is how my buddies and I always discuss tragic events. It seems, sometimes, to anger people since it seems, I guess, disrespectful and irreverent; it's good to see that other people also react to events this way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 06-25-2004 1:01 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 162 (121837)
07-04-2004 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by custard
06-27-2004 7:00 PM


Yeah, now I'll HAVE TO RENT IT... by that time Bush may be out of office lol. Oh well, I know what the movie will be trying to portray, and the message is pretty obvious now.
This message has been edited by prophex, 07-08-2004 11:34 PM

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by custard, posted 06-27-2004 7:00 PM custard has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3944
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 111 of 162 (130230)
08-04-2004 2:38 AM


Something a friend e-mailed to me
'Fahrenheit 9/11' is a stupid white movie: What Michael Moore misses about the empire
posted on Counterpunch, July 5, 2004.
by Robert Jensen
I have been defending Michael Moore's 'Fahrenheit 9/11' from the criticism in mainstream and conservative circles that the film is leftist propaganda. Nothing could be further from the truth; there is very little left critique in the movie. In fact, it's hard tofind any coherent critique in the movie at all.
The sad truth is that 'Fahrenheit 9/11' is a bad movie, but not forthe reasons it is being attacked in the dominant culture. It's at times a racist movie. And the analysis that underlies the film's main political points is either dangerously incomplete or virtually incoherent.
But, most important, it's a conservative movie that ends with an endorsement of one of the central lies of the United States, which should warm the hearts of the right-wingers who condemn Moore. And the real problem is that many left/liberal/progressive people ares inging the film's praises, which should tell us something about the impoverished nature of the left in this country.
I say all this not to pick at small points or harp on minor flaws. These aren't minor points of disagreement but fundamental questions of analysis and integrity. But before elaborating on that, I want to talk about what the film does well.
The good stuff
First, Moore highlights the disenfranchisement of primarily black voters in Florida in the 2000 election, a political scandal that the mainstream commercial news media in the United States has largely ignored. The footage of a joint session of Congress in which Congressional Black Caucus members can't get a senator to sign their letter to allow floor debate about the issue (a procedural requirement) is a powerful indictment not only of the Republicans who perpetrated the fraud but the Democratic leadership that refused to challenge it.
Moore also provides a sharp critique of U.S. military recruiting practices, with some amazing footage of recruiters cynically at work scouring low-income areas for targets, whom are disproportionately non-white. The film also effectively takes apart the Bush administration's use of fear tactics after 9/11 to drive the public to accept its war policies.
'Fahrenheit 9/11' also does a good job of showing war's effects on U.S. soldiers; we see soldiers dead and maimed, and we see how contemporary warfare deforms many of them psychologically as well. And the film pays attention to the victims of U.S. wars, showing Iraqis both before the U.S. invasion and after in a way that humanizes them rather than uses them as props.
The problem is that these positive elements don't add up to a good film. It's a shame that Moore's talent and flair for the dramatic aren't put in the service of a principled, clear analysis that could potentially be effective at something beyond defeating George W. Bush in 2004.
Subtle racism
How dare I describe as racist a movie that highlights the disenfranchisement of black voters and goes after the way in which military recruiters chase low-income minority youth? My claim is not that Moore is an overt racist, but that the movie unconsciously replicates a more subtle racism, one that we all have to struggle to resist.
First, there is one segment that invokes the worst kind of ugly-American nativism, in which Moore mocks the Bush administration's 'coalition of the willing,' the nations it lined up to support the invasion of Iraq. Aside from Great Britain there was no significant military support from other nations and no real coalition, which Moore is right to point out. But when he lists the countries in the so-called coalition, he uses images that have racist undertones. To depict the Republic of Palau (a small Pacific island nation), Moore chooses an image of stereotypical 'native' dancers, while a man riding on an animal-drawn cart represents Costa Rica. Pictures of monkeys running are on the screen during a discussion of Morocco's apparent offer to send monkeys to clear landmines. To ridicule the Bush propaganda on this issue, Moore uses these images and an exaggerated voice-over in a fashion that says, in essence, 'What kind of coalition is it that has these backward countries?' Moore might argue that is not his intention, but intention is not the only question; we all are responsible for how we tap into these kinds of stereotypes.
More subtle and important is Moore's invocation of a racism in which solidarity between dominant whites and non-white groups domestically can be forged by demonizing the foreign 'enemy,' which these dayshas an Arab and South Asian face. For example, in the segment about law-enforcement infiltration of peace groups, the camera pans the almost exclusively white faces (I noticed one Asian man in the scene) in the group Peace Fresno and asks how anyone could imagine these folks could be terrorists. There is no consideration of the fact that Arab and Muslim groups that are equally dedicated to peace have to endure routine harassment and constantly prove that they weren't terrorists, precisely because they weren't white.
The other example of political repression that 'Fahrenheit 9/11'offers is the story of Barry Reingold, who was visited by FBI agents after making critical remarks about Bush and the war while working out at a gym in Oakland. Reingold, a white retired phone worker, was not detained or charged with a crime; the agents questioned him and left. This is the poster child for repression? In a country where hundreds of Arab, South Asian and Muslim men were thrown into secret detention after 9/11, this is the case Moore chooses to highlight? The only reference in the film to those detentions post-9/11 is in an interview with a former FBI agent about Saudis who were allowed to leave the United States shortly after 9/11, in which it appears that Moore mentions those detentions only to contrast the kid-gloves treatment that privileged Saudi nationals allegedly received.
When I made this point to a friend, he defended Moore by saying the filmmaker was trying to reach a wide audience that likely is mostly white and probably wanted to use examples that those people could connect with. So, it's acceptable to pander to the white audience members and over-dramatize their limited risks while ignoring the actual serious harm done to non-white people? Could not a skilled filmmaker tell the story of the people being seriously persecuted in a way that non-Arab, non-South Asian, non-Muslims could empathize with?
Bad analysis
'Fahrenheit 9/11' is strong on tapping into emotions and raising questions about why the United States invaded Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11, but it is extremely weak on answering those questions in even marginally coherent fashion. To the degree the film has a thesis, it appears to be that the wars were a product of the personal politics of a corrupt Bush dynasty. I agree the Bush dynasty is corrupt, but the analysis the film offers is both internally inconsistent, extremely limited in historical understanding and, hence, misguided.
Is the administration of George W. Bush full of ideological fanatics? Yes. Have its actions since 9/11 been reckless and put the world at risk? Yes. In the course of pursuing those policies, has it enriched fat-cat friends? Yes.
But it is a serious mistake to believe that these wars can be explained by focusing so exclusively on the Bush administration and ignoring clear trends in U.S. foreign and military policy. In short, these wars are not a sharp departure from the past but instead should be seen as an intensification of longstanding policies, affected by the confluence of this particular administration's ideology and the opportunities created by the events of 9/11.
Look first at Moore's treatment of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. He uses a clip of former counterterrorism official Richard Clarke complaining that the Bush administration's response to 9/11 in Afghanistan was 'slow and small,' implying that we should have attacked faster and bigger. The film does nothing to question that assessment, leaving viewers to assume that Moore agrees. Does he think that a bombing campaign that killed at least as many innocent Afghans as Americans who died on 9/11 was justified? Does he think that a military response was appropriate, and simply should have been more intense, which would have guaranteed even more civilian casualties? Does he think that a military strategy, which many experts believe made it difficult to pursue more routine and productive counterterrorism law-enforcement methods, was a smart move?
Moore also suggests that the real motivation of the Bush administration in attacking Afghanistan was to secure a gas pipeline route from the Caspian Basin to the sea. It's true that Unocal had sought such a pipeline, and at one point Taliban officials were courted by the United States when it looked as if they could make such a deal happen. Moore points out that Taliban officials traveled to Texas in 1997 when Bush was governor. He fails to point out that all this happened with the Clinton administration at the negotiating table. It is highly unlikely that policymakers would go to war for a single pipeline, but even if that were plausible it is clear that both Democrats and Republicans alike have been mixed up in that particular scheme.
The centerpiece of Moore's analysis of U.S. policy in the Middle East is the relationship of the Bush family to the Saudis and the bin Laden family. The film appears to argue that those business interests, primarily through the Carlyle Group, led the administration to favor the Saudis to the point of ignoring potential Saudi complicity in the attacks of 9/11. After laying outthe nature of those business dealings, Moore implies that the Bushes are literally on the take.
It is certainly true that the Bush family and its cronies have a relationship with Saudi Arabia that has led officials to overlook Saudi human-rights abuses and the support that many Saudis give to movements such as al Qaeda. That is true of the Bushes, just as it was of the Clinton administration and, in fact, every post-World War II president. Ever since FDR cut a deal with the House of Saud giving U.S. support in exchange for cooperation on the flow of oil and oil profits, U.S. administrations have been playing ball with the Saudis. The relationship is sometimes tense but has continued through ups and downs, with both sides getting at least part of what they need from the other. Concentrating on Bush family business connections ignores that history and encourages viewers to see the problem as specific to Bush. Would a Gore administration have treated the Saudis differently after 9/11? There's no reason to think so, and Moore offers no evidence or argument why it would have.
But that's only part of the story of U.S. policy in the Middle East, in which the Saudis play a role but are not the only players. The United States cuts deals with other governments in the region that are willing to support the U.S. aim of control over those energy resources. The Saudis are crucial in that system, but not alone. Egypt, Jordan and the other Gulf emirates have played a role, as did Iran under the Shah. As does, crucially, Israel. But there is no mention of Israel in the film. To raise questions about U.S. policy in the Middle East without addressing the role of Israel as aU.S. proxy is, to say the least, a significant omission. It's unclear whether Moore actually backs Israeli crimes and U.S. support for them, or simply doesn't understand the issue.
And what of the analysis of Iraq? Moore is correct in pointing out that U.S. support for Iraq during the 1980s, when Saddam Hussein's war on Iran was looked upon favorably by U.S. policymakers, was a central part of Reagan and Bush I policy up to the Gulf War. And he's correct in pointing out that Bush II's invasion and occupation have caused great suffering in Iraq. What is missing is the intervening eight years in which the Clinton administration used the harshest economic embargo in modern history and regular bombing to further devastate an already devastated country. He fails to point out that Clinton killed more Iraqis through that policy than either of the Bush presidents. He fails to mention the 1998 Clinton cruise missile attack on Iraq, which wase very bit as illegal as the 2003 invasion.
It's not difficult to articulate what much of the rest of the world understands about U.S. policy in Iraq and the Middle East: Since the end of WWII, the United States has been the dominant power in the Middle East, constructing a system that tries to keep the Arab states weak and controllable (and, as a result, undemocratic) and undermine any pan-Arab nationalism, and uses allies as platforms and surrogates for U.S. power (such as Israel and Iran under the Shah). The goal iscontrol over (not ownership of, but control over) the strategically crucial energy resources of the region and the profits that flow from them, which in an industrial world that runs on oil is a source of incredible leverage over competitors such as the European Union, Japan and China.
The Iraq invasion, however incompetently planned and executed by the Bush administration, is consistent with that policy. That's the most plausible explanation for the war (by this time, we need no longer bother with the long-ago forgotten rationalizations of weapons of mass destruction and the alleged threat Iraq posed to the United States). The war was a gamble on the part of the Bush gang. Many in the foreign-policy establishment, including Bush I stalwarts such as Brent Scowcroft, spoke out publicly against war plans they thought were reckless. Whether Bush's gamble, in pure power terms, will pay off or not is yet to be determined.
When the film addresses this question directly, what analysis does Moore offer of the reasons for the Iraq war? A family member of a soldier who died asks, 'for what?' and Moore cuts to the subject of war profiteering. That segment appropriately highlights the vulture-like nature of businesses that benefit from war. But does Moore really want us to believe that a major war was launched so that Halliburton and other companies could increase its profits for a few years? Yes, war profiteering happens, but it is not the reason nations go to war. This kind of distorted analysis helps keep viewers' attention focused on the Bush administration, by noting the close ties between Bush officials and these companies, not the routine way in which corporate America makes money off the misnamed Department of Defense, no matter who is in the White House.
All this is summed up when Lila Lipscomb, the mother of a son killed in the war, visits the White House in a final, emotional scene and says that she now has somewhere to put all her pain and anger. This is the message of the film: It's all about the Bush administration. If that's the case, the obvious conclusion is to get Bush out of the White House so that things can get back to ' to what? I'll return to questions of political strategy at the end, but for now it's important to realize how this attempt to construct Bush as pursuing some radically different policy is bad analysis and leads to a misunderstanding of the threat the United States poses to the world. Yes, Moore throws in a couple of jabs at the Democrats in Congress for not stopping the mad rush to war in Iraq, but the focus is always on the singular crimes of George W. Bush and his gang.
A conservative movie
The claim that 'Fahrenheit 9/11' is a conservative movie may strike some as ludicrous. But the film endorses one of the central lies that Americans tell themselves, that the U.S. military fights for our freedom. This construction of the military as a defensive force obscures the harsh reality that the military is used to project U.S. power around the world to ensure dominance, not to defend anyone's freedom, at home or abroad. Instead of confronting this mythology, Moore ends the film with it. He points out, accurately, the irony that those who benefit the least from the U.S. system - the chronically poor and members of minority groups - are the very people who sign up for the military. 'They offer to give up their lives so we can be free,' Moore says, and all they ask in return is that we not send them in harm's way unless it's necessary. After the Iraq War, he wonders, 'Will they ever trust us again?'
It is no doubt true that many who join the military believe they will be fighting for freedom. But we must distinguish between the mythology that many internalize and may truly believe, from the reality of the role of the U.S. military. The film includes some comments by soldiers questioning that very claim, but Moore's narration implies that somehow a glorious tradition of U.S. military endeavors to protect freedom has now been sullied by the Iraq War.
The problem is not just that the Iraq War was fundamentally illegal and immoral. The whole rotten project of empire building has been illegal and immoral - and every bit as much a Democratic as a Republican project. The millions of dead around the world - in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, Southeast Asia - as a result of U.S. military actions and proxy wars don't care which U.S. party was pulling the strings and pulling the trigger when they were killed. It's true that much of the world hates Bush. It's also true that much of the world has hated every post-WWII U.S. president. And for good reasons.
It is one thing to express solidarity for people forced into the military by economic conditions. It is quite another to pander to the lies this country tells itself about the military. It is not disrespectful to those who join up to tell the truth. It is our obligation to try to prevent future wars in which people are sent to die not for freedom but for power and profit. It's hard to understand how we can do that by repeating the lies of the people who plan, and benefit from, those wars.
Political strategy
The most common defense I have heard from liberals and progressives to these criticisms of 'Fahrenheit 9/11' is that, whatever its flaws, the movie sparks people to political action. One response is obvious: There is no reason a film can't spark people to political action with intelligent and defensible analysis, and without subtle racism.
But beyond that, it's not entirely clear the political action that this film will spark goes much beyond voting against Bush. The 'what can I do now?' link on Moore's website suggests four actions, all of which are about turning out the vote. These resources about voting are well organized and helpful. But there are no links to grassroots groups organizing against not only the Bush regime but the American empire more generally.
I agree that Bush should be kicked out of the White House, and if I lived in a swing state I would consider voting Democratic. But I don't believe that will be meaningful unless there emerges in the United States a significant anti-empire movement. In other words, if we beat Bush and go back to 'normal,' we're all in trouble. Normal is empire building. Normal is U.S. domination, economic and military, and the suffering that vulnerable people around the world experience as a result. This doesn't mean voters can't judge one particular empire-building politician more dangerous than another. It doesn't mean we shouldn't sometimes make strategic choices to vote for one over the other. It simply means we should make such choices with eyes open and no illusions. This seems particularly important when the likely Democratic presidential candidate tries to out-hawk Bush on support for Israel, pledges to continue the occupation of Iraq, and says nothing about reversing the basic trends in foreign policy.
In this sentiment, I am not alone. Ironically, Barry Reingold - the Oakland man who was visited by the FBI - is critical of what he sees as the main message of the film. He was quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle saying: 'I think Michael Moore's agenda is to get Bush out, but I think it (should be) about more than Bush. I think it's about the capitalist system, which is inequitable.' He went on to critique Bush and Kerry: 'I think both of them are bad. I think Kerry is actually worse because he gives the illusion that he's going to do a lot more. Bush has never given that illusion. People know that he's a friend of big business.'
Nothing I have said here is an argument against reaching out to a wider audience and trying to politicize more people. That's what I try to do in my own writing and local organizing work, as do countless other activists. The question isn't whether to reach out, but with what kind of analysis and arguments. Emotional appeals and humor have their place; the activists I work with use them. The question is, where do such appeals lead people? It is obvious that 'Fahrenheit 9/11' taps into many Americans' fear and/or hatred of Bush and his gang of thugs. Such feelings are understandable, and I share them. But feelings are not analysis, and the film's analysis, unfortunately, doesn't go much beyond the feeling: It's all Bush's fault. That may be appealing to people, but it's wrong. And it is hard to imagine how a successful anti-empire movement can be built on this film's analysis unless it is challenged. Hence, the reason for this essay.
The potential value of Moore's film will be realized only if it is discussed and critiqued, honestly. Yes, the film is under attack from the right, for very different reasons than I have raised. But those attacks shouldn't stop those who consider themselves left, progressive, liberal, anti-war, anti-empire or just plain pissed-off from criticizing the film's flaws and limitations. I think my critique of the film is accurate and relevant. Others may disagree. The focus of debate should be on the issues raised, with an eye toward the question of how to build an anti-empire movement. Rallying around the film can too easily lead to rallying around bad analysis. Let's instead rally around the struggle for a better world, the struggle to dismantle the American empire.
-----------------------------
Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin, a founding member of the Nowar Collective, Page not found - No War Hookups a member of the board of the Third Coast Activist Resource Center, Third Coast Activist | Realistically Radical activist resources in Austin, TX. He is the author of Citizens of the Empire: The Struggle to Claim Our Humanity (City Lights Books).

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Trae, posted 08-05-2004 2:40 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 114 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-06-2004 1:51 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4325 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 112 of 162 (130730)
08-05-2004 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Minnemooseus
08-04-2004 2:38 AM


Re: Something a friend e-mailed to me
Interesting, but I think he is hanging a bit too much on the claim of subtle racism. The use of monkeys as subtle racism escapes me entirely. The country did offer to send monkeys to run over fields and set off mines. I do not think the gym member case is subtle racism. The point of that piece, as I understood it, was that absent any reason to suspect this individual at all, the person was singled out and had formally defend himself. To show this you would want to use the most implausible candidate for terrorist. There might be something in what he says about the Fresno group, which I will keep in mind the next time I watch the film.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-04-2004 2:38 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 113 of 162 (130790)
08-05-2004 6:10 PM


For the sequal...
Ahhhh, I'm sure Moore's squirming that he missed today's doozy of a mistake from Bush. But he can still make a sequal!
While signing a military spending bill Bush proclaimed...
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
Immortal words indeed.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3944
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 114 of 162 (130906)
08-06-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Minnemooseus
08-04-2004 2:38 AM


Re: Something a friend e-mailed to me (again) - Article from Ron Reagan
{Another long one - Hope I'm not violating some forum guideline - Moose}
The Case Against George W. Bush By Ron Reagan
Esquire
September 2004 Issue
Bellaciao
It may have been the guy in the hood teetering on the stool, electrodes clamped to his genitals. Or smirking Lynndie England and her leash. Maybe it was the smarmy memos tapped out by soft-fingered lawyers itching to justify such barbarism. The grudging, lunatic retreat of the neocons from their long-standing assertion that Saddam was in cahoots with Osama didn't hurt. Even the Enron audiotapes and their celebration of craven sociopathy likely played a part. As a result of all these displays and countless smaller ones, you could feel, a couple of months back, as summer spread across the country, the ground shifting beneath your feet. Not unlike that scene in The Day After Tomorrow, then in theaters, in which the giant ice shelf splits asunder, this was more a paradigm shift than anything strictly tectonic. No cataclysmic ice age, admittedly, yet something was in the air, and people were inhaling deeply. I began to get calls from friends whose parents had always voted Republican, "but not this time." There was the staid Zbigniew Brzezinski on the staid NewsHour with Jim Lehrer sneering at the "Orwellian language" flowing out of the Pentagon. Word spread through the usual channels that old hands from the days of Bush the Elder were quietly (but not too quietly) appalled by his son's misadventure in Iraq. Suddenly, everywhere you went, a surprising number of folks seemed to have had just about enough of what the Bush administration was dishing out. A fresh age appeared on the horizon, accompanied by the sound of scales falling from people's eyes. It felt something like a demonstration of that highest of American prerogatives and the most deeply cherished American freedom: dissent. Oddly, even my father's funeral contributed. Throughout that long, stately, overtelevised week in early June, items would appear in the newspaper discussing the Republicans' eagerness to capitalize (subtly, tastefully) on the outpouring of affection for my father and turn it to Bush's advantage for the fall election. The familiar "Heir to Reagan" puffballs were reinflated and loosed over the proceedings like (subtle, tasteful) Mylar balloons. Predictably, this backfired. People were treated to a side-by-side comparison - Ronald W. Reagan versus George W. Bush - and it's no surprise who suffered for it. Misty-eyed with nostalgia, people set aside old political gripes for a few days and remembered what friend and foe always conceded to Ronald Reagan: He was damned impressive in the role of leader of the free world. A sign in the crowd, spotted during the slow roll to the Capitol rotunda, seemed to sum up the mood - a portrait of my father and the words NOW THERE WAS A PRESIDENT.
The comparison underscored something important. And the guy on the stool, Lynndie, and her grinning cohorts, they brought the word: The Bush administration can't be trusted. The parade of Bush officials before various commissions and committees - Paul Wolfowitz, who couldn't quite remember how many young Americans had been sacrificed on the altar of his ideology; John Ashcroft, lip quivering as, for a delicious, fleeting moment, it looked as if Senator Joe Biden might just come over the table at him - these were a continuing reminder. The Enron creeps, too - a reminder of how certain environments and particular habits of mind can erode common decency. People noticed. A tipping point had been reached. The issue of credibility was back on the table. The L-word was in circulation. Not the tired old bromide liberal. That's so 1988. No, this time something much more potent: liar. Politicians will stretch the truth. They'll exaggerate their accomplishments, paper over their gaffes. Spin has long been the lingua franca of the political realm. But George W. Bush and his administration have taken "normal" mendacity to a startling new level far beyond lies of convenience. On top of the usual massaging of public perception, they traffic in big lies, indulge in any number of symptomatic small lies, and, ultimately, have come to embody dishonesty itself. They are a lie. And people, finally, have started catching on. None of this, needless to say, guarantees Bush a one-term presidency. The far-right wing of the country - nearly one third of us by some estimates - continues to regard all who refuse to drink the Kool-Aid (liberals, rationalists, Europeans, et cetera) as agents of Satan. Bush could show up on video canoodling with Paris Hilton and still bank their vote. Right-wing talking heads continue painting anyone who fails to genuflect deeply enough as a "hater," and therefore a nut job, probably a crypto-Islamist car bomber. But these protestations have taken on a hysterical, almost comically desperate tone. It's one thing to get trashed by Michael Moore. But when Nobel laureates, a vast majority of the scientific community, and a host of current and former diplomats, intelligence operatives, and military officials line up against you, it becomes increasingly difficult to characterize the opposition as fringe wackos. Does anyone really favor an administration that so shamelessly lies? One that so tenaciously clings to secrecy, not to protect the American people, but to protect itself? That so willfully misrepresents its true aims and so knowingly misleads the people from whom it derives its power? I simply cannot think so. And to come to the same conclusion does not make you guilty of swallowing some liberal critique of the Bush presidency, because that's not what this is. This is the critique of a person who thinks that lying at the top levels of his government is abhorrent. Call it the honest guy's critique of George W. Bush. The most egregious examples OF distortion and misdirection - which the administration even now cannot bring itself to repudiate - involve our putative "War on Terror" and our subsequent foray into Iraq.
During his campaign for the presidency, Mr. Bush pledged a more "humble" foreign policy. "I would take the use of force very seriously," he said. "I would be guarded in my approach." Other countries would resent us "if we're an arrogant nation." He sniffed at the notion of "nation building." "Our military is meant to fight and win wars. . . . And when it gets overextended, morale drops." International cooperation and consensus building would be the cornerstone of a Bush administration's approach to the larger world. Given candidate Bush's remarks, it was hard to imagine him, as president, flipping a stiff middle finger at the world and charging off adventuring in the Middle East. But didn't 9/11 reshuffle the deck, changing everything? Didn't Mr. Bush, on September 12, 2001, awaken to the fresh realization that bad guys in charge of Islamic nations constitute an entirely new and grave threat to us and have to be ruthlessly confronted lest they threaten the American homeland again? Wasn't Saddam Hussein rushed to the front of the line because he was complicit with the hijackers and in some measure responsible for the atrocities in Washington, D. C., and at the tip of Manhattan? Well, no. As Bush's former Treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill, and his onetime "terror czar," Richard A. Clarke, have made clear, the president, with the enthusiastic encouragement of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, was contemplating action against Iraq from day one. "From the start, we were building the case against Hussein and looking at how we could take him out," O'Neill said. All they needed was an excuse. Clarke got the same impression from within the White House. Afghanistan had to be dealt with first; that's where the actual perpetrators were, after all. But the Taliban was a mere appetizer; Saddam was the entre. (Or who knows? The soup course?) It was simply a matter of convincing the American public (and our representatives) that war was justified. The real - but elusive - prime mover behind the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden, was quickly relegated to a back burner (a staff member at Fox News - the cable-TV outlet of the Bush White House - told me a year ago that mere mention of bin Laden's name was forbidden within the company, lest we be reminded that the actual bad guy remained at large) while Saddam's Iraq became International Enemy Number One. Just like that, a country whose economy had been reduced to shambles by international sanctions, whose military was less than half the size it had been when the U. S. Army rolled over it during the first Gulf war, that had extensive no-flight zones imposed on it in the north and south as well as constant aerial and satellite surveillance, and whose lethal weapons and capacity to produce such weapons had been destroyed or seriously degraded by UN inspection teams became, in Mr. Bush's words, "a threat of unique urgency" to the most powerful nation on earth. Fanciful but terrifying scenarios were introduced: Unmanned aircraft, drones, had been built for missions targeting the U. S., Bush told the nation. "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud," National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice deadpanned to CNN. And, Bush maintained, "Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists." We "know" Iraq possesses such weapons, Rumsfeld and Vice-President Cheney assured us. We even "know" where they are hidden. After several months of this mumbo jumbo, 70 percent of Americans had embraced the fantasy that Saddam destroyed the World Trade Center.
All these assertions have proved to be baseless and, we've since discovered, were regarded with skepticism by experts at the time they were made. But contrary opinions were derided, ignored, or covered up in the rush to war. Even as of this writing, Dick Cheney clings to his mad assertion that Saddam was somehow at the nexus of a worldwide terror network. And then there was Abu Ghraib. Our "war president" may have been justified in his assumption that Americans are a warrior people. He pushed the envelope in thinking we'd be content as an occupying power, but he was sadly mistaken if he thought that ordinary Americans would tolerate an image of themselves as torturers. To be fair, the torture was meant to be secret. So were the memos justifying such treatment that had floated around the White House, Pentagon, and Justice Department for more than a year before the first photos came to light. The neocons no doubt appreciate that few of us have the stones to practice the New Warfare. Could you slip a pair of women's panties over the head of a naked, cowering stranger while forcing him to masturbate? What would you say while sodomizing him with a toilet plunger? Is keeping someone awake till he hallucinates inhumane treatment or merely "sleep management"? Most of us know the answers to these questions, so it was incumbent upon the administration to pretend that Abu Ghraib was an aberration, not policy. Investigations, we were assured, were already under way; relevant bureaucracies would offer unstinting cooperation; the handful of miscreants would be sternly disciplined. After all, they didn't "represent the best of what America's all about." As anyone who'd watched the proceedings of the 9/11 Commission could have predicted, what followed was the usual administration strategy of stonewalling, obstruction, and obfuscation. The appointment of investigators was stalled; documents were withheld, including the full report by Major General Antonio Taguba, who headed the Army's primary investigation into the abuses at Abu Ghraib. A favorite moment for many featured John McCain growing apoplectic as Donald Rumsfeld and an entire table full of army brass proved unable to answer the simple question Who was in charge at Abu Ghraib? The Bush administration no doubt had its real reasons for invading and occupying Iraq. They've simply chosen not to share them with the American public. They sought justification for ignoring the Geneva Convention and other statutes prohibiting torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners but were loath to acknowledge as much. They may have ideas worth discussing, but they don't welcome the rest of us in the conversation. They don't trust us because they don't dare expose their true agendas to the light of day. There is a surreal quality to all this: Occupation is liberation; Iraq is sovereign, but we're in control; Saddam is in Iraqi custody, but we've got him; we'll get out as soon as an elected Iraqi government asks us, but we'll be there for years to come. Which is what we counted on in the first place, only with rose petals and easy coochie.
This Mbius reality finds its domestic analogue in the perversely cynical "Clear Skies" and "Healthy Forests" sloganeering at Bush's EPA and in the administration's irresponsible tax cutting and other fiscal shenanigans. But the Bush administration has always worn strangely tinted shades, and you wonder to what extent Mr. Bush himself lives in a world of his own imagining. And chances are your America and George W. Bush's America are not the same place. If you are dead center on the earning scale in real-world twenty-first-century America, you make a bit less than $32,000 a year, and $32,000 is not a sum that Mr. Bush has ever associated with getting by in his world. Bush, who has always managed to fail upwards in his various careers, has never had a job the way you have a job - where not showing up one morning gets you fired, costing you your health benefits. He may find it difficult to relate personally to any of the nearly two million citizens who've lost their jobs under his administration, the first administration since Herbert Hoover's to post a net loss of jobs. Mr. Bush has never had to worry that he couldn't afford the best available health care for his children. For him, forty-three million people without health insurance may be no more than a politically inconvenient abstraction. When Mr. Bush talks about the economy, he is not talking about your economy. His economy is filled with pals called Kenny-boy who fly around in their own airplanes. In Bush's economy, his world, friends relocate offshore to avoid paying taxes. Taxes are for chumps like you. You are not a friend. You're the help. When the party Mr. Bush is hosting in his world ends, you'll be left picking shrimp toast out of the carpet. All administrations will dissemble, distort, or outright lie when their backs are against the wall, when honesty begins to look like political suicide. But this administration seems to lie reflexively, as if it were simply the easiest option for busy folks with a lot on their minds. While the big lies are more damning and of immeasurably greater import to the nation, it is the small, unnecessary prevarications that may be diagnostic. Who lies when they don't have to? When the simple truth, though perhaps embarrassing in the short run, is nevertheless in one's long-term self-interest? Why would a president whose calling card is his alleged rock-solid integrity waste his chief asset for penny-ante stakes? Habit, perhaps. Or an inability to admit even small mistakes. Mr. Bush's tendency to meander beyond the bounds of truth was evident during the 2000 campaign but was largely ignored by the mainstream media. His untruths simply didn't fit the agreed-upon narrative. While generally acknowledged to be lacking in experience, depth, and other qualifications typically considered useful in a leader of the free world, Bush was portrayed as a decent fellow nonetheless, one whose straightforwardness was a given. None of that "what the meaning of is is" business for him. And, God knows, no furtive, taxpayer-funded fellatio sessions with the interns. Al Gore, on the other hand, was depicted as a dubious self-reinventor, stained like a certain blue dress by Bill Clinton's prurient transgressions. He would spend valuable weeks explaining away statements - "I invented the Internet" - that he never made in the first place. All this left the coast pretty clear for Bush.
Scenario typical of the 2000 campaign: While debating Al Gore, Bush tells two obvious - if not exactly earth-shattering - lies and is not challenged. First, he claims to have supported a patient's bill of rights while governor of Texas. This is untrue. He, in fact, vigorously resisted such a measure, only reluctantly bowing to political reality and allowing it to become law without his signature. Second, he announces that Gore has outspent him during the campaign. The opposite is true: Bush has outspent Gore. These misstatements are briefly acknowledged in major press outlets, which then quickly return to the more germane issues of Gore's pancake makeup and whether a certain feminist author has counseled him to be more of an "alpha male." Having gotten away with such witless falsities, perhaps Mr. Bush and his team felt somehow above day-to-day truth. In any case, once ensconced in the White House, they picked up where they left off. In the immediate aftermath and confusion of 9/11, Bush, who on that day was in Sarasota, Florida, conducting an emergency reading of "The Pet Goat," was whisked off to Nebraska aboard Air Force One. While this may have been entirely sensible under the chaotic circumstances - for all anyone knew at the time, Washington might still have been under attack - the appearance was, shall we say, less than gallant. So a story was concocted: There had been a threat to Air Force One that necessitated the evasive maneuver. Bush's chief political advisor, Karl Rove, cited "specific" and "credible" evidence to that effect. The story quickly unraveled. In truth, there was no such threat. Then there was Bush's now infamous photo-op landing aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln and his subsequent speech in front of a large banner emblazoned MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. The banner, which loomed in the background as Bush addressed the crew, became problematic as it grew clear that the mission in Iraq - whatever that may have been - was far from accomplished. "Major combat operations," as Bush put it, may have technically ended, but young Americans were still dying almost daily. So the White House dealt with the questionable banner in a manner befitting a president pledged to "responsibility and accountability": It blamed the sailors. No surprise, a bit of digging by journalists revealed the banner and its premature triumphalism to be the work of the White House communications office. More serious by an order of magnitude was the administration's dishonesty concerning pre-9/11 terror warnings. As questions first arose about the country's lack of preparedness in the face of terrorist assault, Condoleezza Rice was dispatched to the pundit arenas to assure the nation that "no one could have imagined terrorists using aircraft as weapons." In fact, terrorism experts had warned repeatedly of just such a calamity. In June 2001, CIA director George Tenet sent Rice an intelligence report warning that "it is highly likely that a significant Al Qaeda attack is in the near future, within several weeks." Two intelligence briefings given to Bush in the summer of 2001 specifically connected Al Qaeda to the imminent danger of hijacked planes being used as weapons. According to The New York Times, after the second of these briefings, titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside United States," was delivered to the president at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, in August, Bush "broke off from work early and spent most of the day fishing." This was the briefing Dr. Rice dismissed as "historical" in her testimony before the 9/11 Commission.
What's odd is that none of these lies were worth the breath expended in the telling. If only for self-serving political reasons, honesty was the way to go. The flight of Air Force One could easily have been explained in terms of security precautions taken in the confusion of momentous events. As for the carrier landing, someone should have fallen on his or her sword at the first hint of trouble: We told the president he needed to do it; he likes that stuff and was gung-ho; we figured, What the hell?; it was a mistake. The banner? We thought the sailors would appreciate it. In retrospect, also a mistake. Yup, we sure feel dumb now. Owning up to the 9/11 warnings would have entailed more than simple embarrassment. But done forthrightly and immediately, an honest reckoning would have earned the Bush team some respect once the dust settled. Instead, by needlessly tap-dancing, Bush's White House squandered vital credibility, turning even relatively minor gaffes into telling examples of its tendency to distort and evade the truth. But image is everything in this White House, and the image of George Bush as a noble and infallible warrior in the service of his nation must be fanatically maintained, because behind the image lies . . . nothing? As Jonathan Alter of Newsweek has pointed out, Bush has "never fully inhabited" the presidency. Bush apologists can smilingly excuse his malopropisms and vagueness as the plainspokenness of a man of action, but watching Bush flounder when attempting to communicate extemporaneously, one is left with the impression that he is ineloquent not because he can't speak but because he doesn't bother to think. George W. Bush promised to "change the tone in Washington" and ran for office as a moderate, a "compassionate conservative," in the focus-group-tested sloganeering of his campaign. Yet he has governed from the right wing of his already conservative party, assiduously tending a "base" that includes, along with the expected Fortune 500 fat cats, fiscal evangelicals who talk openly of doing away with Social Security and Medicare, of shrinking government to the size where they can, in tax radical Grover Norquist's phrase, "drown it in the bathtub." That base also encompasses a healthy share of anti-choice zealots, homophobic bigots, and assorted purveyors of junk science. Bush has tossed bones to all of them - "partial birth" abortion legislation, the promise of a constitutional amendment banning marriage between homosexuals, federal roadblocks to embryonic-stem-cell research, even comments suggesting presidential doubts about Darwinian evolution. It's not that Mr. Bush necessarily shares their worldview; indeed, it's unclear whether he embraces any coherent philosophy. But this president, who vowed to eschew politics in favor of sound policy, panders nonetheless in the interest of political gain. As John DiIulio, Bush's former head of the Office of Community and Faith-Based Initiatives, once told this magazine, "What you've got is everything - and I mean everything - being run by the political arm."
This was not what the American electorate opted for when, in 2000, by a slim but decisive margin of more than half a million votes, they chose . . . the other guy. Bush has never had a mandate. Surveys indicate broad public dissatisfaction with his domestic priorities. How many people would have voted for Mr. Bush in the first place had they understood his eagerness to pass on crushing debt to our children or seen his true colors regarding global warming and the environment? Even after 9/11, were people really looking to be dragged into an optional war under false pretenses? If ever there was a time for uniting and not dividing, this is it. Instead, Mr. Bush governs as if by divine right, seeming to actually believe that a wise God wants him in the White House and that by constantly evoking the horrible memory of September 11, 2001, he can keep public anxiety stirred up enough to carry him to another term. Understandably, some supporters of Mr. Bush's will believe I harbor a personal vendetta against the man, some seething resentment. One conservative commentator, based on earlier remarks I've made, has already discerned "jealousy" on my part; after all, Bush, the son of a former president, now occupies that office himself, while I, most assuredly, will not. Truth be told, I have no personal feelings for Bush at all. I hardly know him, having met him only twice, briefly and uneventfully - once during my father's presidency and once during my father's funeral. I'll acknowledge occasional annoyance at the pretense that he's somehow a clone of my father, but far from threatening, I see this more as silly and pathetic. My father, acting roles excepted, never pretended to be anyone but himself. His Republican party, furthermore, seems a far cry from the current model, with its cringing obeisance to the religious Right and its kill-anything-that-moves attack instincts. Believe it or not, I don't look in the mirror every morning and see my father looming over my shoulder. I write and speak as nothing more or less than an American citizen, one who is plenty angry about the direction our country is being dragged by the current administration. We have reached a critical juncture in our nation's history, one ripe with both danger and possibility. We need leadership with the wisdom to prudently confront those dangers and the imagination to boldly grasp the possibilities. Beyond issues of fiscal irresponsibility and ill-advised militarism, there is a question of trust. George W. Bush and his allies don't trust you and me. Why on earth, then, should we trust them? Fortunately, we still live in a democratic republic. The Bush team cannot expect a cabal of right-wing justices to once again deliver the White House. Come November 2, we will have a choice: We can embrace a lie, or we can restore a measure of integrity to our government. We can choose, as a bumper sticker I spotted in Seattle put it, SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-04-2004 2:38 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3944
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 115 of 162 (158693)
11-12-2004 11:10 AM


From the other (closed) F-911 topic - Re: Soundtrack
quote:
Left the theater wondering if there's going to be a soundtrack album released.
It's out on Rhino Records. Rolling Stone mag (11/11/04 issue) reviews it on page 110 - 3 1/2 stars.
Here's the allmusic.com page, including sound samples.
Moose

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6514 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 116 of 162 (225608)
07-22-2005 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
06-25-2004 9:24 PM


Michael Moore for Crashfrog
Hey Crash,
The "What's a Liberal?" thread was closed before I could answer you on the topic of Mike Moore.
I used to like his movies, but he does do some hatchet work editing, and deffinetly distorts things. F9/11 was ok compared to what he did with columbine, this website took Moore down a notch or two, so I take what he says with a very big chunk of salt:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
So ya, I think Moore is pretty shameless. It seems to me he has a defendable position, but hes to lazy to actually do the research and defend it so he just rather sensationalize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 06-25-2004 9:24 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 117 of 162 (225610)
07-22-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Yaro
07-22-2005 11:40 PM


Re: Michael Moore for Crashfrog
somone posted that way earlier, i think.
here's a page with some breif info and links on 911. this is about the least biased source i could find (laugh). but it does raise some interesting points.
http://www.mooreexposed.com/911.html

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Yaro, posted 07-22-2005 11:40 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2005 8:30 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 118 of 162 (225640)
07-23-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Yaro
07-22-2005 11:40 PM


Re: Michael Moore for Crashfrog
It's been several years since I watched Bowling for Columbine, so I'm not going to be able to defend that movie.
Nontheless many of these criticisms appear specious to me. The website appears to criticize as "lies" what is obviously presented as parody in the movie. Moore is entitled to mock his opponent's positions, it seems to me. On viewing the movie I had no difficulty distinguishing from Moore's visual sarcasm and actual fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Yaro, posted 07-22-2005 11:40 PM Yaro has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 119 of 162 (225641)
07-23-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by arachnophilia
07-22-2005 11:51 PM


Re: Michael Moore for Crashfrog
here's a page with some breif info and links on 911. this is about the least biased source i could find (laugh). but it does raise some interesting points.
Again I see a lot of criticisms that fall flat.
[quote]You can't count on Moore even to show you an honest headline.[/qs]
Moore is entitled to present illustrative materials to make his points. That copy did in fact appear in a newspaper; it was reset for the screen so that we could read it. I don't see the problem.
quote:
To stir up interest in Fahrenheit 9/11 before its release, Moore claimed that it had footage of Iraqi detainee abuse, and that he was troubled in conscience because he hadn't released the footage earlier. The New York Times reported that
quote:
"Mr. Moore said he was considering making at least one sequence from the film available to the news media today after he presents it at the Cannes film festival: that of American soldiers laughing and taking pictures as they place hoods over Iraqi detainees, with one of them touching a prisoner's genitals through a blanket."
Pressed by a British paper for details of this "detainee," Moore admitted he wasn't a detainee at all: "In fact, the soldiers had picked up an old man who had passed out drunk and they poked at his visible erection, covered by a blanket." [Incidentally, this revelation received no coverage at all in the American press].
Wait, what? The soldiers "picked up" the man. I.e. they detained him for some purpose. (Being drunk, perhaps.) In what sense is he not a detainee? This criticism doesn't hold up.
quote:
Bush family - Bin Laden family ties. Whoopee. The bin Ladens happen to be one enormous clan.
This criticism doesn't even dispute the accuracy of Moore's claim, it only offers a differing opinion about its significance. Well, great. People are entitled to hold differing opinions (unless we're talking about conservatives, I guess.)
quote:
The Carlyle Group, as the link between bin Ladens and the Bush family. Yep, it's one big business, reportedly worth over three billion, lots projects in the Mideast. Both Bushes were tied in with Carlyle pretty thoroughly, and Bush, Sr. in retirement would travel to Saudi Arabia to hunt up more contracts. The bin Laden family invested two million in a $1.3 billion fund run by it. [Source: Guardian Unlimited - The ex-president's Club]. But if that's a "tie" to bin Laden, Moore would have to face a big problem. The guy who put Carlyle on the map, sinking $100 million into it, was a fellow named George Soros. The same fellow , yes, who invested about $30 million into trying to defeat George Bush. Does Soros have bin Laden links? Certainly, if we accept Moore's equation.
I've never heard Moore assert that Soros didn't have ties to the Carlyle Group, and moreover this claim is both unsupported and out of context. George Soros is a multi-billion-dollar industrialist and investor; if we're only talking about 100 million my guess is that it was one of his subsidiaries, and not Soros himself, who floated this money. I don't know for sure of course and the criticism is so deliberately vague as to make it impossible to verify.
And moreover, Soros isn't the President of the United States. Moore's claim in the movie is not that a tie to the Carlyle Group is automatically bad, but that his deep financial ties and entanglement with the bin Laden family created a conflict of interest that prevented the Administration from taking the necessary steps that could have prevented 9/11. Since we know from other sources that that's true - that the Bush family exerted influence to retard anti-terror investigations that would have possibly been harmful to the bin Laden family - Moore's claim is quite accurate, apparently, and completely undiminished by this phoney criticism.
All this is is the right's obsession with destroying the character of George Soros, who they hate because he's a rich man without the decency to vote Republican.
quote:
The flight of the bin Ladens. Moore makes this a major theme; supposedly the bin Ladens and Saudis pulled strings with the President, and were flown out of the country during the no-fly period right after 9/11.
This claim is true. Despite the closing of the national airspace, Saudi nationals and bin Laden family members were flown by the FBI to gathering areas to await flights out of the country when they resumed.
quote:
TAMPA - Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left.
The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky.
The Saudis then took another flight out of the country. The two ex-officers returned to TIA a few hours later on the same plane.
from No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_now_verifies_flig.shtml
Now, why wasn't that in the 9/11 commission report? The more I find out, the more I come to believe that the commission was either criminally derelict in its duty, or the Bush administration's hampering interference paid off, or both.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by arachnophilia, posted 07-22-2005 11:51 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 120 of 162 (225806)
07-23-2005 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by crashfrog
07-23-2005 8:30 AM


Re: Michael Moore for Crashfrog
Again I see a lot of criticisms that fall flat.
yes, i imagined that would be the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2005 8:30 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
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