Saddam's Execution could become a reality?

Really? How many soldiers are in Medina and Mecca? More ignorance. The US is there as a guest of the Iraqi Government. They don't just do whatever we tell them. In fact, we MUST consult them before attempting any major offensive operations. One example is Al Sadr. We would have finished him off, and his militia, but the IIG called an end to the operation. They wanted to have talks with him.So we did, and they did. Let me clarify something here. I am a US Soldier. I did a tour in Operation Iraqi Freedom. I worked for the Deputy Chief of Staff, Strategy, Plans and Assessment; Multi-National Force-Iraq, as well as in the Economic Effects Branch in Baghdad, Iraq for a little under a year. My boss was a 2 star general. His boss was General Casey. I've met most of the Iraqis in the IIG. I did 300 missions on the worlds most dangerous road and slept in the most targeted 4 square miles in the world for indirect fire.But the "occupation" doesn't affect me huh? Try again meathead. I hate to play the "I was there" card, but you bring it on yourself. I'll let the families of those who died in Iraq speak for themselves. As for the "unilateral" intervention:Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Mongolia, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and United States.Those are all countries with troops in Iraq. There were 35 countries when we started.Just because we don't have Russia and France doesn't mean it is unilateral. How many soldiers do we have in Mecca and Medina again?Oh, and like I care what offends terrorists. There is no reasoning with idiots that fly planes into buildings or saw people's heads off for kicks and giggles. You simply kill them.You think those morons are freedom fighters? Go join them and by all means, point a weapon in my general direction.This message has been edited by Tal, 08-30-2005 09:27 PM

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"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

Prophex, although I DO generally agree with your edict against American foreign policy, i would point out that were we truly even able to stop our foreign policy, it would mean giving up a lot of power and influence...which the wealthy 2% would merely pass the bill down into the American middle class....devestating them.Perhaps you think that we should be "for real" Christians and just allow it all to happen. I won't say that we could even have the guts to do it.Look at New Orleans! Cops getting shot by gangstas intent on looting the "man" and the capitalist system. Do you really think that there will ever be peace on this planet??New Orleans is under water, the gangs are looting everything that they can get, and it is in our own country!!Tal, I respect you for what you have endured, and I know that you listen to the "other side" of these arguments...just do me a favor and don't diss Prophex...he is only 16 and he has not seen life in the ways that you have seen it. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-30-2005 09:42 PM

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Try again meathead. I hate to play the "I was there" card, but you bring it on yourself. I'll let the families of those who died in Iraq speak for themselves.

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Wow, I just got called a meathead. Good thinking.I'll let the families of the IRAQIS speak for themselves, because it is where they live. What compelled people like you to join the military in the first place? Like killing those in distant lands, with an excuse, a direct order, a justification from a confused president?

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But the "occupation" doesn't affect me huh?

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Unfortunately, you effect the occupation.

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More ignorance. The US is there as a guest of the Iraqi Government. They don't just do whatever we tell them. In fact, we MUST consult them before attempting any major offensive operations. One example is Al Sadr. We would have finished him off, and his militia, but the IIG called an end to the operation. They wanted to have talks with him.

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So we did, and they did.

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Stop "finishing people off", that is so unfeeling, what are you desensitized, do you not care about people being killed? I'm sure if someone you loved were shot in the head like that guy in the gruesome photo I saw just now, you wouldn't talk of people dying like finishing off a pepsi.

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As for the "unilateral" intervention

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As for your "multilateral support": from wikipedia

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United States - As of July 2005 there were around 140,000 US soldiers
United Kingdom - 8,361 (previous listed number: 7,900) troops
South Korea - About 3,700 ROK (Republic of Korea) troops
Italy - Independent contingent of 3,216 troops
Poland - 1,700 Polish troops in South Central Iraq
Ukraine - An independent contingent originally consisting of 1,650 mechanized infantry troops
Romania - 830 troops
Georgia - 400 troops
Japan - 550 medics and engineers
Denmark - Independent contingent of 550 troops
Bulgaria - 50 forces
El Salvador - 380 special forces troops
Mongolia - 180 men
Azerbaijan - 250 troops
Albania - 125 non-combat troops
Latvia - 122 troops under Polish command
Czech Republic - 107 military policemen
Lithuania - 120 troops
Slovakia - 105 military engineers
Estonia - 55 troops
Armenia has deployed a unit of 46 soldiers
Bosnia and Herzegovina deployed a 36 man force
Macedonia - 33 troops
Kazakhstan - 29 military engineers
Fiji - 130 Fijian troops
Georgia - 500 blue-helmets performing

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What a coalition. Naming all the countries and thinking that the names will represent the soldiers equally was stoopid.

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Oh, and like I care what offends terrorists. There is no reasoning with idiots that fly planes into buildings or saw people's heads off for kicks and giggles. You simply kill them.

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You think those morons are freedom fighters? Go join them and by all means, point a weapon in my general direction.

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Really? You simply kill them? You're simply a monster. Your failure to recognize simple cause and effect reasonings behind terrorism eludes me. What you have shown me is inhuman, it's beyond name-calling, it isn't right, and I'm sure our saviour wouldn't approve sir. Actually, I'm positive.

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Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

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That says a whole lot considering these "terrorists" are NOT your enemies, they have been denied rights that you enjoy, so they revolt.

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porteus@gmail.com

The thing is Phat, is that Jesus wouldn't have went into Iraq and killed people, and Tal doesn't see that.Of course, he wouldn't commit acts of terrorism either, but all I am trying to say is that these acts, are not unprovoked, and we have to seriously think about the things we have done as a country to cause terror.

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he has not seen life in the ways that you have seen it.

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I don't want to, but I do understand Tal's predicament. It is tough to deal with the war I guess, I bet when he joined he didn't want people to end up actually dying.This message has been edited by prophex, 08-31-2005 12:04 AM

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porteus@gmail.com

This thread was meant to be a short information seeker.Sorry to Tal if I offended you. Got a little crazy.

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porteus@gmail.com

Actually, what the communists did to South Vietnam was even more horrible.And despite the popular belief among the American youth that the South Vietnamese were against American intervention with our civil war, I can assure you that that was not the case at all. You are using an example of a fanatical instance in history to try to generalize.Everyone that I have talked to who lived through those times (60's and 70's) have told me that although the Americans were not popular they were better than when the communists took over. As a matter of fact, many people who fought for the North have told me and people I know that during the war they were really hoping for the south to win.Besides, the South Vietnamese ASKED the US to get involved. To compare the Vietnam situation with the Iraq war is a bit misinformed.Have you ever heard of the New Economy Policy? Have you ever heard of the reeducation camps? Have you ever heard of massacre of land owners in Vietnam? I highly doubt that you have because these things are not taught in American schools. Until you get to know these things please don't try to speak for the Vietnamese people.

Charlie, let me tell you a story that is a bit of a parallel to this topic. Here in Denver, there was a shooting at a formal wedding party in the predominantly Hispanic section of the city.
This article explains the situation. Basically, Denver Police wanted this cop killers head on a platter, but Mexico has a law that states they will never give up a Mexican national to the U.S. if the death penelty is involved...regardless of the crime. The situation is similar in Iraq. Saddam should be charged and tried by his own people--not the U.S. A lot of "Christians" do not understand the character of Jesus Christ.
He told His Disciples to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars. The U.S. would do well to render unto Iraq the things that are Iraqs. We are not God. If they want to place Saddam in prison for fifty years and keep him alive, let them do it!As a side topic, American Christianity does NOT understand Jesus Christ, by and large. He went into a rage over the selling and economics in the Temple...a "House of Prayer" and communion with God. Do you think that if Jesus went into a modern day church and saw all of the Christian C.D.s, books, and posters on sale in he lobby that He would be happy about THAT?? Nevertheless, war is a fact of life. There are modern day reports of prophets. I am a skeptic, and trust very little of modern Christianity. I was always curious about THIS Prophet, however. He was not after money so much, and he always glorified God. He predicted that America would one day burn from coast to coast. I can say one thing. By the time we get through this years hurricane season, the insurance companies will be virtually broke! This country is teetering financially. Unlike Pat Robertson, I do not believe that the judgement is Gods wrath on American immorality....I believe that the tragedies are what must happen, and that some Americans wiill turn closer to the real God and not the false god we trust on our money!

Alright, lets try this again.This is a debate forum. You normally have to back up what you are saying with an outside source.Everytime I've cornered you on something or asked a question, you change the subject.But I'll answer your agian. I have talked to the Iraqis, in person, face to face. Have you? You could call it that. I prefer to call it doing my duty as my fathers have done before me. The only thing that has made you free is the blood of soldiers. Not politicians, not protesters, and not the media. I serve something other than myself. It's all good to feel warm and fuzzy about people, but in the real world there are evil men. They do evil things. You can't negotiate with them. They cut people's heads off and post it on the internet? Sound like someone you want to meet? Stoopid huh? Tell that to the soldiers from those nations who are in Iraq putting their life on the line so the Iraqi people can rule themselves. Cause and effect reasoning behind terrorism? Please elaborate (that means tell me more). Who denied them their rights?Furthermore, anyone who blows up civillians is a terrorist, I don't car what their reason is. You think the 911 highjackers, all Saudis, didn't enjoy all pleasures of western life? They did. So why did they commit their acts?Oh, and anyone.....anyone....who points a weapon in my general direction is most certainly the enemy.

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"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

The buddhist protests show it all lam.

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Everyone that I have talked to who lived through those times (60's and 70's) have told me that although the Americans were not popular they were better than when the communists took over. As a matter of fact, many people who fought for the North have told me and people I know that during the war they were really hoping for the south to win.

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I'm having a terribly hard time believing you, Ho Chi Min was a hero to his people. Roosevelt made a deal to give the Vietmen freedom from the French when they fought so bravely during WWII, but he later died, and didn't write it down, so the French wanted the colony back, and asked us to help, this was perfect, because it gave us grounds to kill off communism, and stop "the domino effect" from happening, that is, other countries becoming communist around them in southeast Asia. We exploited the south vietnamese to stop the north, and we failed miserably. Although the comparison is not 100% valid, my point about US appointed leaders is true.

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To compare the Vietnam situation with the Iraq war is a bit misinformed.

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I know, I read all about it in "Grand Strategy in the Second Term" - John Lewis Gaddis.

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Have you ever heard of the New Economy Policy? Have you ever heard of the reeducation camps? Have you ever heard of massacre of land owners in Vietnam? I highly doubt that you have because these things are not taught in American schools. Until you get to know these things please don't try to speak for the Vietnamese people.

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You read it too deep, I was just making a point about Ngo Dinh Diem.

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porteus@gmail.com

Cause and Effect Terrorism.The question comes up, why would anyone want to terrorize us, the Americans? This is the first question that came into my head on 9/11. Well, generally speaking terrorists do things to change their environment for the better of themselves, their people, or their countries. Terror is not a justifiable action to promote change in the world. But what I have been trying to get across to you, are the reasons why terror is upon us, the richest country in the world. Does our wealth have something to do with it? Maybe. But the fact is, terrorists DONT DO THINGS WITH NO REASON, OR INNER JUSTIFICATION. So these people are like you and me, but they are in situations that threaten their livlihood, beliefs, or human rights, this sparks action for changing this, for making their lives better.You have asked me to provide specific evidence for why we would be attacked, by middle eastern people. In this post I will try to provide you with it.1. We wage war in their country, slaughtering thousands, with changing reasons for why we went to Iraq. WMDs? No, Oil? Slightly. Self-determination? An idealistic veil for the realist goals we have for going into their country. Saddam? Not good enough, we have caused more to die than he did.2. We back Israel financially, and provide weapons, tanks. Palestinians die, they begin to hate us almost more than Israel. I recently saw a documentary on the Palestinian issue, its crazy the way that the kids are raised to hate Israel.3. Our presence in the Middle East is not wanted.4. We desecrated a Quran in the past couple months, sparking giants protests, and riots.Sad thing is, we only care about ourselves.One last point.

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Furthermore, anyone who blows up civillians is a terrorist, I don't care what their reason is.

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Then we are as guilty as they are, my friend.Casualties of Civilians dead in Iraq: minimum; 23,654 maximum; 26,773.From your standard, the United States are the biggest terrorists around, from only one war.Iraq Body CountThat's enough reason for Iraqis to terrorize us, is it not? This message has been edited by prophex, 08-31-2005 03:52 PM

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porteus@gmail.com

Please don't post any more pictures of people like you shooting others in the head. That image made me not able to sleep dood. No joke.

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porteus@gmail.com

Wow, thanks for the reference from Mark, that really moved me man.It's sort of crazy, what's happening around the world, just like the NT stuff. Matthew 24.

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porteus@gmail.com

The only reason the buddhist protested like that was because he was promised by the communists of everything true communism was suppose to be about. If you understand buddhism, you'd realize that the buddhist philosophy is somewhat close to what true communism offers. Have you ever eaten rats, roaches, and crickets to live day by day? Have you ever slept all day because you wouldn't feel hungry when you're asleep? Are you even Vietnamese? This is a rhetorical statement. Of course Ho Chi Minh was a hero to his people, otherwise they wouldn't be his people. It's like saying Hitler's people loved him. Why? It's because he already killed off all the people that didn't like him.When the communist took over North Vietnam, they massacred thousands of land owners and anyone that was intellectual. The only reason South Vietnam escaped this fate was because by 75 they had realized that killing off all the people with all the know-how's wasn't such a good idea after all.You're in high school and you're learning the very basics of history. Please don't think that it's all there was to it about history. Your problem is you have learned a historical perspective and is convinced that it's the only existing historical perspective out there.Yes, the US exploited the South by spreading the capitalist and democratic ideas to it.My family was able to go to school and eat everyday when South Vietnam was democratic. After 75, we had to resort to eating roaches and rats just to survive. On more than a few occasions, we had to sleep all day just so (1) we wouldn't waste precious energy and (2) the hunger wouldn't be that bad.Sure, you can blame on the economic sanctions, but it wasn't that. When the communists took over, they burned the food warehouses. They destroyed most of the canned foods that were left behind by the Americans. My mom was able to obtain enough of them and hid them away before they were destroyed. Those canned foods lasted my family for a year!Again, until you have lived through a time when you had to eat roaches to survive, please don't pretend to speak for the Vietnamese people. Repeat after me. The South Vietnamese people ELECTED their leaders at the time. After 75, they hadn't since. What you read was a historical perspective of a single person who probably never had to catch sewer rats to feed his family. Again, have you heard about the New Economy Policy or the other things I mentioned? I even doubt that Gaddis even heard of these things.Prophex, no offense, but this is one of the reason I don't like you two. You've read something somewhere and accept it as the truth of the universe. Even if a person who personally knows about whatever it is tells you that you are wrong, you still cling to your initial belief.I am telling you now. The South Vietnamese people, at least the older generation who remember a time when they had plenty to eat and the freedom to elect their leaders, absolutely cursed the Americans for leaving in 75. They felt abandoned, period.Oh, wait, you're a know it all American who thinks he knows everything about what goes on in the rest of the world.

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Prophex, no offense, but this is one of the reason I don't like you two. You've read something somewhere and accept it as the truth of the universe. Even if a person who personally knows about whatever it is tells you that you are wrong, you still cling to your initial belief.

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Maybe it's because "we" go places and college professors say these things .You know what Ho chi mins constitution said?We the People......da da da da daHe was using communism, a tool but he was also promoting enlightenment.Ppl call me a communist...Listen stop mentioning me in your posts.YOU OBVIOUSLY HOLD A VENDETTA AGAINST SOMEONE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW.I've never claimed to spew absolute truth.You mention me in every post you make.But whatever I'm not getting into this.. edit by AdminPhat: Chris, just leave him alone...I don't want you to get in trouble again, You and Prophex are my homies!This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 08-31-2005 11:57 PM

Charlie, I am temporarily closing this topic. Later, when more news about Saddam becomes national again, we can re-open and comment further. If you have any objections, just e-mail me or go to the official complaint thread. (I feel like I am on a giant playground holding CSP and Prophex back with one hand and holding Lam back with the other! Tal is there, too! Lets all move on to other topics for now!