Take the Atheist Challenge!!!

I say we hunt the cockroach and the turtle to extinction. They don't taste very good, but at least they are gone when we go extinct.

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The Laminator

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What are you talking about? I have made many mistakes in the past and I have admitted them, too. An example is when I said that Neanderthal remains were found only in Europe. Sylas corrected me and I admitted it. They were in fact found in the middle east as well.

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The Laminator

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Again, and please get this down because this would be the millionth time someone has told you this, nothing is "proven" in science... except in cases of falsification, which a theory is "proven" to be false.

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Ok then, I think you shouldn't use it as a reason not to find God.

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Stick to the subject at hand. You are trying to commit a red herring

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Its more like, due to my lack of knolwedge on the subject, I was wondering if the flagellum had something to do with what happened in the dish.

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No, we do not have it all figured out. However, we do have enough to figure out that certain claims by some creationists are either outright lies or ignorance.

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I am only making one claim here, that I feel the presense of God, and how it happened for me.

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By being immune to the effect of the infecting RNA

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Let me see if I got this, so it ignores the instruction of the infecting RNA?
I wish I knew more about that, thats so awesome.

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Yes, it is different. As stated many many many many times before, no 2 persons are genetically identical. However, 2 bacteria decended from 1 are genetically identical. In the bacterium that is immune to the T4 phage, there was a mutation that gave it immunity.

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I get something from this statement, but I can't figure it out, I will think about this one.

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Whether or not evolution is a fact, theory, or both is somewhat still debated. Again, you used that word "proven" and it bothers the heck out of me. A theory can never be proven. If you as science literate as you claimed, you should have known that.

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I think I was taught in school, that when something is a theory, and it gets proven, it then becomes fact. So I was trying to figure out how evolution became fact without being proven.
Maybe nothing in biology is proven, but in other areas of science things are proven.
Like theory of an atom, then finding out it was true, or theories on chemistry, then proving them.
You mean to tell me not one single theory has been proven?

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name one.

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I will leave that up to the scientists, I believe in God. Thats my theory and my belief now. Like rhain said its hard for people who believe to drop thier belief's and have an open mind, but the same goes for those who don't believe.
I always give everything a fair chance, I can't help it if God keeps winning for me.

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Yes
No-stop using the word "prove."
Yes

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Prove prove prove, j/k
Interesting, ok limit of knowledge for me to continue.
Is the change in the bacteria permanent? Because I notice someone say that through selective process it would become permenent, implying that it might be permanent, which would classify it as a mutation, and not evolution.

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Sorry, yes you did, thanks. So the way bacteria duplicate is different. So is it then possible the way they evolove would be different, and natural selection might not apply to one or the other?
Doen't also mean that the processes are so different that witnessing something in one, would have nothing to do with the other? In this case?

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Could you explain this further? I'm having a hard time understanding what you meant.

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How are you guys quoting? I think I am doing it the hard way.
I don't know, I guess I am saying that you are trying to show evolution in a dish with an organism that is so different from us, that it would be hard to compare the 2.
Since bacteria is cloning, and human reproduction is not.
Genetics would be passed on differently.

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Yes, the mutation is permanent to the ones that have it.

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And thier off-spring?I think some things got repeated in here, sorry.

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I think your information is out-of-date. We have instruments nowadays to observe these bacteria.

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Do they rest after cloming? Thats what I am talking about, the hypothetical cigarette.Ok ok I got it now on the theory thing, as far as a theory never being able to be proven, because we should never assume that we know everthing about any particular subject.This is what I have been preaching in other words. It is because of this that I will not use any scientific theory to take away my belief in God. Can you guys understand that?In this way of looking at it, I don't consider evolution a proper word to describe what happened in the dish. They mutated possibly because of the THEROY OF EVOLUTION. Although thier could be another reason for this mutation, and it doesn't neccesarly mean that, thats how human were formed.
You compare the word gravity.
When you jump out of a window you fall.
This is because of THE THEORY OF GRAVITY, not from gravity directly, because we could never say we understand gravity, therefor thier could be a remote explaination for falling out the window and hitting the ground.
Scientifically speaking of course.God is on a much different level of thinking than this. There is no theorys. Although there are plenty of circumstance eveidence's.
It's like when someone tells you the truth about something, and you already know the truth. You can confirm that it is indead true.
This is the feeling of God.Once you know the truth it will set you free.Unfortunaly, there is so much confusion as how to obtain this, and so many lies, that the truth gets shrouded from you. The devil wins.This is my opinion, ok, so don't start yelling me.
but I feel it's the truth.

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Care to share to the rest of us how those bacteria survived based on your "truth?"

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Not sure, but God could have designed it that way. Its an amazing this whole life on earth. Like I said, it doesn't mean the bacteria would be anymore than bacteria.

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Depends on what you mean by behavior. If you were refering to interaction between the organisms, of course they're different. If you were refering to biological behavior, yes, they are identical.

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*confused*

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Isn't mutation common place in nature?
Don't many things mutate without evolving?
If so, then how could mutation be a hallmark?

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Yes- very common.

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Yes- They're called "junk" genes.

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Because mutation causes evolution... in combination with other mechanisms.

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mmmmm, interesting, is it possible that the genes in bacteria are different than ours? Like different than junk genes?

I am going back a few posts, to post 26.
Your modified challenge lists the following stipulations: (lol) LOL LOLThe point is, Rrhain and other have stated that they have performed these very actions. In post 29, you state that ; why? How does biologicial evolution even factor in with your challenge (as Lam pointed out post30)? My guess is that you were not expecting so many unbelievers to say that they did try, and were let down. So you then attempted to sway the subject by attacking ToE. After your refutations were answered, you respond as if you are not hearing.Further, in post 26, you said: How does one PREACH science? Is it possible that you think that science is a religion? (Note the sarcasm, sorry )

Yes I completely understand that.I did some studying on the word allele, so I would have a small clue of what I was talking about.Darwin said that if something couldn't be explain through natural selection, that his theory would be wrong. Do you agree?

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why? How does biologicial evolution even factor in with your challenge (as Lam pointed out post30)? My guess is that you were not expecting so many unbelievers to say that they did try, and were let down. So you then attempted to sway the subject by attacking ToE. After your refutations were answered, you respond as if you are not hearing.

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My point exactly. I didn't bring it up.
As for the rest, you might have not read my posts completely.hey I took 13 years to find God. I accepted him in my heart 5 years ago. I didn't feel him till 5 months ago. It was all due to my knowledge of TOE, and my intelligent doubt that I couldn't feel.This is possible why "dumb" people can find God quicker, becasue they aren't clouded with knowledge. This is only a theory, lol.
But I have come to admire "dumb" people for some qualitys that I do not have and had to learn.

Believe it or not, the theory of evolution has gotten a lot more complicated than when it first proposed by Darwin. With that said, I really don't know how to answer that question. (Ignorance on my part.)

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The Laminator

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Which you have already shown to us that you really don't know that much about it anyway. Sorry to nitpick at something, but I feel that it is legitimate for me to point this out. You didn't even know that, according to the theory of evolution, adaptive traits are not passed on to the organism's offsprings.This is why I question your claim. You claimed that your knowledge of ToE brought you to God. I would say that your lack of knowledge of ToE brought you to God.

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The Laminator

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Dude......lol!
That deserves a spin-off topic!

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This is possible why "dumb" people can find God quicker, becasue they aren't clouded with knowledge. This is only a theory, lol.

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***writes down next to Stephen's "farting out demons" quote***

riverrat says:

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This is possible (sic) why "dumb" people can find God quicker, becasue (sic) they aren't clouded with knowledge. This is only a theory, lol.
But I have come to admire "dumb" people for some qualitys (sic) that I do not have and had to learn.

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I wish I had this kind of humility.regards,
Esteban Hambre

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***writes down next to Stephen's "farting out demons" quote***

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I beg, please provide the forum/topic where that was said. No one will believe it unless I provide some kind of link.
Thanks in advance!edited to include quoteThis message has been edited by MonkeyBoy, 05-13-2004 01:59 PM

(riVeRraT speaking about immunity On a positive note, I think this is about the most important thing you have said in this thread. And if anything is on-topic, this is it. If you would be willing to follow this up, I'd gladly forgo commenting on everything else you said.This is where knowledge comes from: curiosity. Don't be afraid to get "clouded" with knowledge. Eventually, knowledge will get you above cloud level, and the view there is breathtaking. Keep your god if you want to, but also immerse yourself in knowledge, question things, don't take anything for granted, investigate. That's your challenge. You won't regret it.

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

No one uses the ToE as a reason for not finding God. It would astonish me if someone claimed that. A majority of believers also understand and accept current biological science, physics and geology. There is no connection between believing in God and the sciences.However, if you're somone who says that if the earth isn't 6,000 years old then God doens't exist then you are the one making knowledge a reason for not finding God. Don't blame the scientists. The blame is on the shoulders of the creationists. Go to the "UBB code is ON" link on the left of the edit screen to see all the things you can do.Also if you click the little blue raw text button at the bottom of a post you can see exactly how someone is doing something.

I don't need authority to speak facts. We don't need to know whether or not the bacteria were "designed" to it to know that they do it, and what they do -- whether it was designed or not -- is evolution. It's part of it, but not all of it. Individuals don't evolve. Populations do. Depends on what you mean by "ape." If by "ape" you mean "primate," then we ARE STILL APES. If by "ape" you mean "gorilla" or "chimpanzee," then no, because we never were those creatures. We simply share a common ancestor with them. I invite you to peruse the evidence sections of http://www.talkorigins.com. Science is limited. It is not intended to explain everything, nor is it capable. If you think it is, then you don't understand science. No, I think you're misunderstanding. Science can tell us facts about reality, and if you believe in a God-concept that relies on reality being DIFFERENT than science has discovered, then THAT God-concept is falsified. God, in general, is unfalsifiable, which is why acts of God are scientifically meaningless. While this is certainly more relevant to the original topic of the thread, it's tangential and irrelvant to the points I was making. If a person thinks he's Napoleon, is that reality to him? Is that reality to you? That statement makes absolutely no sense. Whether or not person's "know the truth" has no effect on the unfalsifiability of supernatural hypotheses.