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Author Topic:   creo/evo creative movies/books/plays
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 52 (78309)
01-13-2004 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by mike the wiz
01-13-2004 7:17 PM


Re: So would you put me under
quote:
Unless you can quote where in the NT it says do these things, in the name of Christ - then the people who do then are NOT Christian, even if they say so.
I agree with you so far as that goes, and I would hesitate to say you're missing the point because you weren't responding to me, but from my perspective it hardly matters whether such people are or are not Christian. The fact is they believe themselves to be Christian and they believe they are doing God's work. Many historians insist that Toms de Torquemada was a devout Christian, and no doubt he would have identified himself as such, yet he was responsible for the deaths of countless thousands of Jews and other "heretics".
I speak of the so-called "Christians" here in the US South because I interact with them daily and have come to know them quite well (and I thank God I wasn't reared to believe as they do). Most of them no more impress me with their faith and piety than would Attila the Hun, but the fact is they believe themselves to be Christians. Some of them are unreconstructed racists who believe (devoutly) that all of this country's problems started with the Civil Rights movement. Almost to a man (or woman) they believe that the ACLU is Satanic. They are morons, plain and simple. They have been taught since birth that they are not to think for themselves and should believe nothing that doesn't come straight from the bible. They still oppose the teaching of evolution in the schools, and I've heard many, many of them say that Darwin's books are Satan's scripture. You may feel that people like this are not true Christians (and I would agree with you) but that doesn't matter much. What matters is what they themselves think, because what they believe is what will dictate their actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 01-13-2004 7:17 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 01-14-2004 9:52 AM berberry has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 32 of 52 (78368)
01-14-2004 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by mike the wiz
01-13-2004 7:17 PM


Re: So would you put me under
Berberry pretty much replied the way I would have. I'll add only this:
[quote]Schrafinator: It's easy to point to behavior that we now consider reprehensible and say that those people weren't "real" christians, but that is too easy.[quote]
quote:
Yes. I've heard this from the bias Atheist for years. I get blamed for everything, only he missed one point.
Oh, don't cry "biased Athiest!" now.
quote:
I did not take part in the crusades. Or any other murderous wars or racism e.t.c. Yet he's intent on blaming this all on me, - the Christians. But then he needs to pull his head out of his bum.
I don't hold you responsible for the acts of past Christians.
I am just refusing to allow you to post hoc reason your way out of squarely facing the realities of the immoral acts your predececessors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 01-13-2004 7:17 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 01-14-2004 9:38 AM nator has not replied
 Message 43 by defenderofthefaith, posted 03-11-2004 4:56 AM nator has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 33 of 52 (78385)
01-14-2004 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by nator
01-14-2004 8:05 AM


I thank Berberry for his/her response and I understand the position. I am ignorant of the US though, cos I've never lived there. I don't know what you could have to put up with.
Oh, don't cry "biased Athiest!" now.
Well, I'm not. I know you are agnostic?
So I am not accusing you or anything, remember I said it's him who has his head up his bum.
I don't hold you responsible for the acts of past Christians.
Okay, first of all there is a fight in the wiz box, logic has taken over: (could be another topic)
What do we define as Christian? Would you accept:
1. Someone who follows Christ and the teachings of his words.
(For the sake of the debate, Christ is definately against raping and killing e.t.c.)
I do not logically think the definition of Christian will change if a person changes his/her actions.
Now personally, I think then that logically if a person starts to rape and kill, the person changes but the definition of Christian does not. The person has now become a rapist/killer.
So, if you attempt to say something like:
2.Christians are rapists and killers because they have killed and raped.
I would disagree because the definition of Christian hasn't changed but the person has changed into a: rapist/killer.
You and Berberry are dealing with who you might call "christian" but do you apreciate that I am not by definition anything of a rapist/killer, and if you call me "Christian" I am only rule1. Therefore peoples present or past actions bare no relevance to MY Christian position?
I know you would seem to want to put "christian" as also an evil doer Schraff But are you correct logically?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 01-14-2004 8:05 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Wounded King, posted 01-15-2004 5:59 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 34 of 52 (78387)
01-14-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by berberry
01-13-2004 10:40 PM


They are morons, plain and simple.
and I've heard many, many of them say that Darwin's books are Satan's scripture.
I agree, moron is a better definition of them, rather than Christian.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 01-14-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by berberry, posted 01-13-2004 10:40 PM berberry has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 35 of 52 (78597)
01-15-2004 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
01-14-2004 9:38 AM


Are you saying that as soon as that person rapes/kills they stop being a christian? What if they are a catholic and do suitable pennance, do they become a christian again after their sin is expiated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 01-14-2004 9:38 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by mike the wiz, posted 01-15-2004 10:53 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 36 of 52 (78644)
01-15-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Wounded King
01-15-2004 5:59 AM


Are you saying that as soon as that person rapes/kills they stop being a christian?
Well I'll put it to you like this. If you can find where Jesus says rape and kill I'll change my outlook. But someone who claims to be Christian after they have raped and killed and says:
" Yes.....I mean what's unchristian about killing and raping, I'll do my pennance, 4 hale satan's and then I'll be fine "
Is obviously not Christian.
I mean to say they've fell from grace is an understatement, they have darn right black holed.
They must have been long sighted and were really reading the book of satan when thinking it was the NT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Wounded King, posted 01-15-2004 5:59 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by docpotato, posted 01-15-2004 11:12 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 37 of 52 (78648)
01-15-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by mike the wiz
01-15-2004 10:53 AM


quote:
If you can find where Jesus says rape and kill I'll change my outlook.
Well, Jesus is God no? He is the son and also the same as God, correct? In that case Jesus did in fact order some killings done through his other face God in the Old Testament (someone else on the board can back me up, I've seen too many threads about God ordering killing) and as is under debate elsewhere, he may have ordered the rape of virgins!
Oh my, splitting hairs can be fun. Care to open a new thread as this has nothing to do with movies/books/plays?
[This message has been edited by docpotato, 01-15-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by mike the wiz, posted 01-15-2004 10:53 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 01-15-2004 11:23 AM docpotato has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 38 of 52 (78649)
01-15-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by docpotato
01-15-2004 11:12 AM


Bzzzzzzzzt.wiz's wager.
What is necessary to Christians is to follow Christ's example.
I might have known the good OT would be mentioned soon enough. Or are you talking about events?
Christ is our example, not events in the OT. Christians follow God's example of how to live (he himself lived in Christ ). Are you saying I should ignore Christs teachings " love your enemy " e.t.c. Because of events in the OT?
And what will be my excuse on judgement day? - When a perfectly sinless life was lead by God - BEING a person.
Using the OT will not change anything. For 1. I don't even believe you are capable of understanding, that's not an insult, but are you reading it without wiz's wager?
A lot of people use "events" in the OT, but ignore the "teachings" directly aimed at ALL people by Christ, not solely jews.
Sorry about that rant!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by docpotato, posted 01-15-2004 11:12 AM docpotato has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-15-2004 2:24 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 40 by Chiroptera, posted 01-15-2004 4:21 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 39 of 52 (78681)
01-15-2004 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mike the wiz
01-15-2004 11:23 AM


I think you are expressing what I think "Christian fundimentalism" should be, as opposed to what it actually is. But this line of debate does belong in it's own new topic. But, I'm not the one who's going to start it.
Cheers,
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 01-15-2004 11:23 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by berberry, posted 01-16-2004 1:48 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 52 (78691)
01-15-2004 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mike the wiz
01-15-2004 11:23 AM


quote:
What is necessary to Christians is to follow Christ's example.
You mean roam around the countryside, relying on the kindness of strangers for their material support? I AGREE! Heck, if all missionaries were itinerate wanderers without a secure means of support I would even allow one to occasionally spend the night at my house. (But not more than two or three disciples, please. My refridgerator isn't big enough!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 01-15-2004 11:23 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
columbo
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 52 (78733)
01-15-2004 7:58 PM


Minnemooseus, fair enough, maybe I'm trying too hard here. I'll leave off a tad.
Chiroptera, ....Your always welcome in my, erm....(scratches head) what exactly do I own? ......erm, my country.

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 52 (78814)
01-16-2004 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Minnemooseus
01-15-2004 2:24 PM


quote:
...this line of debate does belong in it's own new topic. But, I'm not the one who's going to start it.
I hope you won't mind if I start it then; I do have something more I'd like to say. I'll call the new thread 'Fundamentalism and the True Christian' since that seems to be what we're discussing.
[This message has been edited by berberry, 01-16-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-15-2004 2:24 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 52 (91713)
03-11-2004 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by nator
01-14-2004 8:05 AM


Re: So would you put me under
'Fundamentalist' has become an emotionally loaded term for a Christian who is narrow-minded and intolerant. But remember, what it actually means is merely someone who believes in the fundamentals of their faith. Since the Bible tells us to follow the words of God, and God (in particular incarnated as Jesus) told us even to love our enemies as ourselves, then anyone who calls themself a Christian and engages in these acts as a matter of principle must by definition not be a Christian. Biblical literal fundamentalists should not be tarred with the same brush as people who call themselves Christians but show otherwise by virtue of their actions.
Let's not forget that these ideas also extend to the religion of atheism. (You don't have to believe in God to be religious, or have a faith, do you?) Prominent followers of atheist and humanist philosophy such as Stalin and Mao Zedong have killed millions in their pursuit of power. The violent Reign of Terror in revolutionary France was oriented towards creating a purely atheist nation/government, even to the point of deleting the Biblical seven-day week in favour of a ten-day 'decade'.
[This message has been edited by defenderofthefaith, 03-11-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-11-2004 1:13 PM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 44 of 52 (91763)
03-11-2004 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by defenderofthefaith
03-11-2004 4:56 AM


berberry's new(er) topic
Please take this line of discussion to "Fundamentalism and the True Christian".
Adminnemooseus

Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
too fast closure of threads

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by defenderofthefaith, posted 03-11-2004 4:56 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
Intelligitimate
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 52 (109358)
05-19-2004 10:09 PM


quote:
Prominent followers of atheist and humanist philosophy such as Stalin and Mao Zedong have killed millions in their pursuit of power.
This is a bourgeois lie. Neither Mao nor Stalin are responsible for millions of deaths.

  
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