Christian Evangelism - Is it Off Track?

Dear Randman; In the Bible when someone was resurrected, they were fully cured and got up and walked about. Is that the case in what you are referring to, or is it cases where they thought someone had died and somebody prayed and the person woke up? If they still were sick when they woke up, it was probably nothing miraculous since in Biblical resurrections the recovery was always complete. You are probably thinking of these two verses.
(Mark 6:5-6) "So he was able to do no powerful work there except to lay his hands upon a few sickly ones and cure them. Indeed, he wondered at their lack of faith."
(Matthew 13:58) "And he did not do many powerful works there on account of their lack of faith."
The reason Jesus didn't do many signs or cures was because it wouldn't have made any difference, they would not have believed no matter how many he cured. It was not necessary for the person being cured to have faith, such as when Jesus raised the dead. The reason cures were not used to cure fellow believers certainly was not because they lacked faith, but rather the purpose of the signs was for a witness so that people could see that God was with the Christians and to strengthen the faith of new believers. The cures were mainly part of the public preaching work, they were not for keeping the congregation in good health, that was not the purpose. Yet that is exactly how faith healers seem to work today, just the opposite of the way it was done in the Bible. Never do we see anyone in the Bible being unable to cure some one because that person lacked faith. Notice what Matthew 17:19-20 states "Why is it we could not expel it?" He said to them: "Because of YOUR little faith." this is the one time in the Bible that one of signs couldn't be done because of a lack of faith, and Jesus pointed to his disciples as being the problem of having the lack of faith, not the person they were trying to cure. Many of the persons cured in the Bible were not followers of Christ, some were not even present and some were even dead. So the lack of faith argument used by faith healers falls flat, it was never a problem in the Bible. You do agree that we live in the time of the end right?(Daniel 12:4) "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant." According to this scripture in our time, the book of Daniel will be unsealed and knowledge will become abundant. What was once seen imperfectly, is now clearly understood and knowledge has indeed become abundant just as it was foretold. The prophecies are understood and it is seen how the prophecies in the different books of the Bible interlock and work like the gears of a Swiss watch. This knowledge is yours for the taking. (Revelation 22:17) "And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: "Come!" And let anyone hearing say: "Come!" And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life's water free." When I read the verse, I don't see any mention of God or Christ, Paul is just talking about knowledge; (1 Corinthians 13:12) "For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known." using the illustration of a hazy metal mirror for partial knowledge and seeing face to face for the complete knowledge. Also in the next verse Paul states that after signs of the spirit end, three things would remain. (1 Corinthians 13:13) "Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Now notice what Paul said about hope. (Romans 8:24-25) "For we were saved in [this] hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep on waiting for it with endurance." What Paul is saying that once you have something, you no longer hope for it since you already have it. So there is no way that hope would remain after the sings of the spirit ended if this occurred in heaven, since the person would have already attained their hoped for salvation. Paul also stated that it was the same way with faith. (Hebrews 11:1) "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." So if your interpretation was correct, how could faith remain after seeing God face to face since the reality would have already been beheld? Paul wrote all of these verses, and from what he stated he meant by using the terms faith and hope, it is clear that he was not talking about the signs of the spirit ending in heaven, but rather he was saying that they would end when we would still need and have hope and faith, which has to be while we are still on earth. So Paul was talking about that the signs of the spirit would end at a time to him was in the future after the completed knowledge arrived, in the form of the completed NT.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Dear Scharfinator; When the issue of circumcision and of whether or not the law of Moses had to be kept, a decision was made as to what was necessary for Christians to do to please God. (Acts 15:6-20) 6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. . . . James answered, saying: . . . Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood." James as the head of the congregation at the time, along with the apostles and older men, under the guidance of the holy spirit, decreed that the command given to Noah and later included in the Mosaic law code not to consume blood, was binding on Christians. Christ didn't need to command Jews not to take blood, since they were already forbidden to do so by the law, the issue only arose later when people of the nations became Christians who were never under the law. Still didn't read the links on bloodless medicine I see. You should have, it would have answered your questions. I do tend to agree with you on the last point, that the fact that the child has not made up his mind should be considered. Group suicide? God condemns suicide.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Full-blown Bible-style raising up someone from the dead. It helps if you are in a nation that does not whisk the dead body off, disect and embalm it, etc,...The Bible says He "could not do", and clearly Jesus at times suggests that the person's faith is partly responsible for their healing. "Your faith has made you whole."Now, other times, it is true that God through Jesus demonstrates the miraculous without anyone's faith being involved except the Lord's. Nonetheless, that does not negate the times where God says someone's faith is required.I hear you in the sense that God can do anything He wants, but at the same time that has to include limiting Himself as well. Jesus required faith of men for certain miracles.Scott, what face do you think Paul is talking about when he says then we will see "face to face." You seem to want to dismiss that as a mere anaology, but even as an analogy it doesn't work. It says we will know even as we are known. Knowledge is not a person that it "knows us." Paul is clearly talking of the Lord here.The proof of that is that there is no such thing as perfect knowledge outside of knowledge of God. The whole Bible is certainly not perfect knowledge. Simple. Faith is an attribute of God and thus remains, as well as hope and love. I realize that this seems to contradict other areas of faith and hope being discussed, but not all theology is that simple.God has perfect knowledge, but still has faith and hope. Jesus knew He would be raised from the dead, but still had faith and was moved by the hope of our salvation. In context, some verses which contrast living by faith as oppossed to living by sight bring out the aspects of faith and hope you are referring to.But there will never be a time when we don't have the fruit of the Spirit. There will never be a time when we don't have faith, hope, and love. These will remain because they speak of intrinsic qualities of God, not just aspects of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.This message has been edited by randman, 08-22-2005 07:20 PM

So, Christ never mentions blood transfusions, and it is part of Mosaic law.Well, aren't there a whole bunch of Mosaic laws that you don't follow? Why follow this one and not others? Also, if "consuming" blood is the language of the Bible, doesn't that refer to the Mosaic kashrut laws about abstaining from literally eating the blood of animals?

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Group suicide? God condemns suicide.

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But that's not what you said. You said that it was good and right for a Christian to die for their faith.To agree to refuse life-saving medical treatment when that is the only way your life will be saved (and there are times where a blood transfusion is the only way to save a life) is tantamount to suicide for religious reasons.

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You do agree that we live in the time of the end right?

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Again?You all have been making predictions for Armageddon for a long time: you thought it would happen in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1975 and in 1994.This would be funny (OK, it's still really funny) if what happened after the 1975 failed endtimes prophecy wasn't so extreme: linkYou all have finally wised up and stopped making actual testable, verifiable predictions about the end of the world and instead just keep making vague allusions that "the end is near".This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-24-2005 09:16 AM

Dear Randman; Why? Jesus raised Lazarus from his tomb after he had been prepared for burial and had been dead four days. For the son of the widow of Nain, he stopped the funeral procession and raised him right off the funeral bier while it was still on the shoulders of the bearers, like stepping out in front of a herst and opening the coffin and raising the person right then and there to good health. Why don't we ever hear of that happening? Why don't faith healers go to funerals and raise the deceased, it would be a terrific way of witnessing for Jesus, why don't they do it? Because they can't, they don't have God's backing or his holy spirit. If a person had God's power to raise the dead, it wouldn't matter if the person had been cremated. If you reread the two verses I posted on Jesus and the lack of faith, notice that he still did do some cures despite their lack of faith.
(Matthew 13:58) "And he did not do many powerful works there on account of their lack of faith."
(Mark 6:5) "So he was able to do no powerful work there except to lay his hands upon a few sickly ones and cure them."There is not a single case in the Bible where a cure could not be done because of a lack of faith on the part of the sick person. The faith that made the people well was that they believed enough in Jesus to ask him, their faith moved them to act and be healed. (Matthew 9:20-22) "a woman suffering twelve years from a flow of blood came up behind and touched the fringe of his outer garment; for she kept saying to herself: "If I only touch his outer garment I shall get well." Jesus turned around and, noticing her, said: "Take courage, daughter; your faith has made you well."" Her faith in Jesus ability to heal her cause her to act and be healed, if she wouldn't of had the faith to take action, she wouldn't have touched the fringe of Jesus outer garment. Look at this case, (Matthew 8:13) "Then Jesus said to the army officer: "Go. Just as it has been your faith, so let it come to pass for you." And the manservant was healed in that hour." because of the army officer's great faith, Jesus healed the man's servant who wasn't even there and no mention is made if the servant had any faith, it wasn't necessary. Look at the verse, Paul is clearly using an analogy about the mirror verses seeing face to face. (1 Corinthians 13:12) "For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known." In the second part, he is talking about knowing partially like the mirror image verses accurately knowing just as when face to face, Paul would see the other person clearly and they would see Paul clearly. Paul is still using his analogy about the mirror verses seeing in person, he is saying that with accurate knowledge we will know things as clearly as we would know or see Paul if we were looking right at him, verses trying to make out his image in a hazy metal mirror. The phrase "then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known" refers to Paul seeing the other person in his analogy as clearly as they would see or know it was Paul. Paul has another person in his analogy as the contrast to seeing one's own reflection in a metal mirror compared to seeing someone else in person or face to face and knowing what and whom you are seeing. Why do you think he is talking about God or Christ here? Yes it is, it is from God. (James 1:17) "Every good gift and every perfect present is from above," being from God, the gift of knowledge in the Bible is perfect or always right. (Psalm 19:7) "The law of Jehovah is perfect." We are also perfectly equipped to do God's will by using the knowledge in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." In the sense of being the complete or total knowledge that God wants us to have, the knowledge in the Bible is perfect or complete. Before the Bible was completed, the Christians only had partial knowledge, once they had the completed scriptures, they had the complete knowledge that God intended for them to have. The knowledge is perfect in the sense that it is complete, it doesn't fall short of what God wanted us to have. So perfect knowledge is available today. Faith is not an attribute of God, his main qualities are love, justice, wisdom and power as shown by scripture and illustrated by the four faces of the cherubs. Faith as Paul said is "the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." Hebrews 11:1 How can God have or even need faith when he knows what the future will be? In whom or what would God have faith in? Same thing with Hope, what does God hope for or in what does he hope? When he knows the future. I can't find a single scripture that states God has faith or hope. The same for angels. Like Paul said, once you see something you no longer hope for it, once you have it, it is not a matter of faith or hoping, you know it and have it. Jesus when he was on earth was fully human and nothing more, he needed to have faith as much as we do. "For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin." Hebrews 4:15 Jesus faith and hope in God's resurrecting him from the dead, was tested along with Jesus' loyalty to his father. While he was on earth, Jesus was just a man and when he died he was dead and was completely dependent on being raised from the dead by his father, this called for faith and hope in his God and the resurrection. He was just as dependent on the resurrection as we are when we die. Once he was back in heaven, he no longer was a human man, and no longer needed to have faith and hope in Jehovah God his father, when he was sitting right at his side. It would be like having faith and hope that the sun will rise after it is already up. Once the goal has been obtained, faith and hope have served their purpose, and are replaced by the certainly of having. The fact that faith and hope remain after the signs of the spirit come to an end, shows that their ending is not connected with a person's going to heaven.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Dear Schrafinator; The issue as to whether or not Christians were to keep the Mosaic law was raised in the 1st century.
Acts 15:1-2 "And certain men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: "Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved." But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Barnabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute."
The decision reached by the governing body of 1st century Christian congregation under the direction of the holy spirit was;
Acts 15:28-29 "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication"
The decision was that Christians did not have to keep the mosaic law, but certain things are still binding on Christians and one of them is the command to abstain from blood. The command of course is literally prohibiting the eating of foods containing blood, and since you can't eat it, you logically can't transfuse it. Blood has a special symbolic status in the Bible revolving around Jesus using the value of his blood to redeem mankind, that is why we are told that the life or soul is in the blood. Genesis 9:4 "Only flesh with its soulits bloodYOU must not eat." Blood pictures the life that Jesus give up to save us, and why blood is not to be used for food or medicine, out of respect for the divine command and Jesus' ransom sacrifice.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

I'll respond more later, but by your argument Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit for 30 years since he did no miracles for that time.

Dear Schrafinator; You obviously don't understand the difference between the word "suicide" and the word "martyr", go look them up in the dictionary.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Dear Schrafinator; Incorrect, some of these dates yes, some no they don't ring any bells with me. We have been in the time of the end since 1914, it is a period of time of unknown length. Your quote on what happened after 1975 is pure fiction as far as I know, nothing like that happened as I recall. As for 30K Witnesses being disfollowshipped, the main reason for such has always been immorality, those who left after 1975 drifted away and were not disfollowshipped so they don't even show up in the figure of 30K. Your source on this one is out in left field and doesn't seem to know what he is talking about.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Matthew 3:16 After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.

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The command of course is literally prohibiting the eating of foods containing blood,

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Exactly.

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and since you can't eat it, you logically can't transfuse it.

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Hold on.That doesn't follow logically at all.You aren't "consuming" your own blood that is currently flowing through your own body, are you?If you are badly burned and get a skin graft, are you "consuming" the new skin?

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But that's not what you said. You said that it was good and right for a Christian to die for their faith. To agree to refuse life-saving medical treatment when that is the only way your life will be saved (and there are times where a blood transfusion is the only way to save a life) is tantamount to suicide for religious reasons.

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You obviously don't understand the difference between the word "suicide" and the word "martyr", go look them up in the dictionary.

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I always thought a martyr is someone who dies while being persecuted for their faith.What does refusing a blood transfusion after a car accident or childbirth have to do with being persecuted for your beliefs?This message has been edited by AdminJar, 08-25-2005 11:32 AM