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Author Topic:   WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDEMENTALISM
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 121 of 137 (116907)
06-20-2004 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Buzsaw
06-19-2004 7:57 PM


quote:
From post 119/Willowtree: We disagree on how the fruit of the Spirit is to be achieved.
Fundementalism is perverted by the pursuit of the fruit of the Spirit APART from the way of faith/gospel.
Wherever the N.T. records a list of sins/righteous standard IT IS ALWAYS in the context of the gospel. This means these lists, which Buzsaw is calling "fundementals" will be the fruit of the indwelt Spirit which only operates IF faith is being practiced.
The Fundementalists pervert the work of the Spirit by pursuing the fruit of the Spirit via their own discipline, and they project the message that the conformity to the fruit of the Spirit is the way a person walks with God.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus established to even DESIRE sin - God considers you guilty even if you didn't actually do it. This is an absolutely impossible Divine standard to comply with. EVERYONE constantly sins in their thoughts and desires. Jesus established this Divine standard in order to fulfill it AND to MAKE us conclude that we CANNOT do it. This is intended to drive us to do the ONLY other option to please God - the way of faith/gospel, which if embraced allows the Spirit to come inside and change us miraculously.
This inner change is a miracle - the fruit of promise received - the fruit of the Spirit.
The Fundementalists PERVERT this process by their damnable focus on legalism - the "mistaken" belief that God is pleased by performing the fundementals/works of the law/N.T. lists which are derived from O.T. law.
I placed the word mistaken in quotes to denote that it is really not a honest mistake but the perversion condemned in Galatians, which is placing that which is behind (law/fundementals/righteous standard) back in front of the New way of faith and faith alone - the gospel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Buzsaw, posted 06-19-2004 7:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 122 of 137 (117218)
06-21-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by wmscott
06-18-2004 6:35 PM


quote:
what if I redefine the word "satanist" to be someone with your beliefs, does that make you a satanist? No, it would make me look dumb but it wouldn't make you a satanist any more than your redefinition makes me a fundamentalist. Plus as I have very patiently been repeatedly explaining to you, as a Christian I don't follow the Mosaic law, had bacon just the other day as a matter of fact, so there
The "righteous standards"/requirements contained in the N.T. are derived directly from O.T. law, and you have admitted that these standards are practiced by Jehovah's Witnessess.
As long as a person does not perform any law or standard or requirement with the intent of gaining or maintaining standing with God, then they are not connecting salvation with works.
You call it "righteous standards", the N.T. calls it the fruit of the Spirit.
The Spirit only manifests this fruit when faith apart from the works of law is practiced.
"Righteous standard" is a synonym, a euphemism for Mosaic law. All the N.T. lists of sins originate from Mosaic law. Your error is to say just because they are reiterated in the N.T. that this gives you a license to pursue them on your own compliance abilities.
These N.T. righteous standards EXIST in the context of the gospel. This means the Spirit in you by faith will accomplish them by miracle.
Whether you deny it or not in this topic does not change the fact that the JW's commit the exact same heresy of the Fundementalists - the pursuit of righteousness apart from the exclusive method of the way of faith/gospel.
You just recently, in another topic contended that the Abrahamic Covenant ended sometime in the Book of Acts.
The Abrahamic Covenant IS the gospel. It is Paul's MAIN evidence to this end as he clearly explains it in Galatians and Romans.
Righteousness is by faith, just like God imputed righteousness to Abraham when he believed God on another issue.
For you to reveal what you have concerning the Abrahamic Covenant PROVES the gospel-voiding heresy of Jehovah's Witness.
quote:
I am disheartened to hear that you reject the book of James, perhaps you should list all the Bible books you reject so that I don't try to base my arguments on verses you reject. As I pointed out in my last post.
I never said I rejected the Book of James.
I said I accept the Book of James placement into the Canon, by God, for the single purpose as to have an exhibit of what heresy looks like.
In Bible inerrancy debates, usually the first thing Bible haters cite is the contradictions between Paul and James.
They are absolutely correct.
This is intentional by God.
God included James into the Canon to demonstrate the crooked message of James - a message that identifies gospel voiding perversion - a message wholly embraced by the Fundemenatlists/Jehovah's Witnesses.
James says some good things. This evidences that gospel voiding perverts do not look or sound bad, in fact they look religious and "God fearing". But the message of James is that standing with God is determined by works of the law, which he inverts to really be "faith".
Negative ! Works is not faith and faith is not works. Romans 4 says "to him who worketh not his faith is counted as righteousness".
quote:
How many Christians have you seen who believe in once saved always saved and feel free to do what every they want? Without what was behind the law, christianity becomes play dough that people twist into whatever fits their life style rather than changing their conduct to live by Christ. Just as the law guided the Jews to Christ as a group, the righteous principles in the law continue to guide individuals to Christ by showing us how sinful we are and that we need a redemption from sin.
Most of christianity believes in "once saved always saved" nonsense.
Everytime you, or any church, point to the righteous laws of God, this focus, no matter how well intentioned, leaves the impression that compliance by ones own effort is God's will.
People do not need to know what a sin is - they know !
They need to know how to get delivered from it.
The church is supposed to preach Christ and live their convictions.
Problem is the church is preaching their convictions as Christ.
We need to trust God to change people as we preach the gospel/way of faith with no strings or conditions attached.
Once again, Paul said IF ye be circumcised (any righteous standard done to please God) Christ will profit you NOTHING. You can perform the standard as a matter of conscience but to project your personal compliance to be God's will is the perversion of the gospel. God's will is the way of faith be practiced so He can do the changing.
Glad to debate with you Anderson.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by wmscott, posted 06-18-2004 6:35 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by wmscott, posted 06-22-2004 5:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 123 of 137 (117602)
06-22-2004 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object
06-21-2004 5:09 PM


No contradictions between Paul and James
Dear Willowtree;
quote:
In Bible inerrancy debates, usually the first thing Bible haters cite is the contradictions between Paul and James. They are absolutely correct. This is intentional by God. God included James into the Canon to demonstrate the crooked message of James - a message that identifies gospel voiding perversion.
The 'Bible haters' don't know squat about the Bible which is why they don't understand it and see contradictions all over the place that don't even exist. There is no conflict between Paul and James, they both teach the same things. A reference book I have explains the situation very nicely.
quote:
"Eager to invent supposed contradictions, some have claimed that James' letter encouraging faith by works nullifies Paul's writings regarding salvation by faith and not by works. However, the context reveals that James refers to faith supported by works, not just words, whereas Paul clearly means works of the Law. Actually, James supplements the arguments of Paul, going one step further by defining how faith is made manifest." "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" p. 249
You still haven't answered this part from my earlier posts, so I will post it for the third time.
quote:
What James stated in Acts was; (Acts 15:28-29) "we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication." and what Paul wrote the Galatians; (Galatians 5:19-21) "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." The two are speaking in agreement. There is no contradictions or conflict in what the Bible teaches, such things only exist in the minds of those who have yet to come to a better understanding of God's word. In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul states the same basic rules as James and states that those who practice these will not inherit the Kingdom, so how is there a conflict between the two when they teach the same thing?
Most of our difference on faith/works is probably a matter of viewpoint and word definctions. What I believe the Bible teaches is that we are saved by faith alone, but that faith needs to be a faith that produces works. The works do not save us, but that faith that produced them does. But if our faith doesn't move us to do the works, we really don't have faith.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-21-2004 5:09 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-22-2004 7:03 PM wmscott has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 124 of 137 (117632)
06-22-2004 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by wmscott
06-22-2004 5:45 PM


Re: No contradictions between Paul and James
quote:
The 'Bible haters' don't know squat about the Bible which is why they don't understand it
You and I are in complete agreement !
quote:
There is no conflict between Paul and James, they both teach the same things
They teach the same things if you ignore what they say at face value and if you ignore common sense.
Fact: James and Paul clashed in Acts 15.
We know this because Galatians says so.
We know this because Acts 15:1 says the Judaizers message, which originated from the leader of the church at Jerusalem/James, required an external conformity to righteous standard or you were not saved.
BUT, when James saw the eloquent speech of PETER in Acts 15 he had to drop circumcision like a hot potato. Peter, in his apostolic speech to the First Church Council, admitted that Mosaic law was not kept by "our Fathers or us".
But James didn't understand the gospel way of faith apart from the works of the law. This is the exact problem: He thought is was a license to excuse sin - nobody said that or implied that. This is why he suddenly decided to salvage a portion of his law compliance/ensure salvation doctrine by reeling off a small list of Levitical law.
quote:
What James stated in Acts was; (Acts 15:28-29) "we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication."
The perversion is in the "exception", this clearly implies that IF you perform/conform to these righteous standards that this gains standing with God.
Compliance with these laws in and by themself will not get you saved or maintain your salvation.
The issue is the GOSPEL and the new role of the Law/righteous standard, and that new role is total abrogation IF you are gospelizing/acting in faith.
James is polluting/perverting the pristine gospel message with age-old works conformity.
quote:
Paul wrote the Galatians; (Galatians 5:19-21) "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom."
You originally quoted James and then Paul. I have rightly split your quotes up because they in no way are compatible.
The above Pauline quote from Galatians was written in the context of the GOSPEL/way of faith to exclusively relate to God. The fruit of the indwelt Spirit miraculously makes you conform. This Spirit only comes in by faith and continues to operate only by faith, which said thing called "faith" has nothing to do with works, which makes the message of James in his epistle pure heresy.
The words "gospel" or "grace" do not appear in the general epistle of James - not even once !
Martin Luther called the book of James, "an epistle made of straw".
The single issue before the First Church Council in Acts 15 was the role of the law. Paul's response to this question came laboriously in the book of Galatians.
Galatians and the book of James are grossly contradictory, and no amount of intelligence insulting contortions can rectify that which was not intended to be.
Paul and James are only made consistent when the fruit of the Spirit/righteous standard is confused/perverted to be the "work of faith".
quote:
"Eager to invent supposed contradictions, some have claimed that James' letter encouraging faith by works nullifies Paul's writings regarding salvation by faith and not by works. However, the context reveals that James refers to faith supported by works, not just words, whereas Paul clearly means works of the Law. Actually, James supplements the arguments of Paul, going one step further by defining how faith is made manifest." "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" p. 249
This is a typical "let me explain how what you read is not really saying what you read".
As if I need some legalist to tell me that the obvious is not really obvious after all.
The excerpt employs classic "rhetoric" which is the misuse of logic in order to support a claimed fact.
Paul meant what he said as did James.
James is not talking about "faith supported by works".
James said "show me your faith (the faith Paul preaches) and I will show you my works (as referenced in Acts 15).
James, and the church at Jerusalem ADDED Christ onto Mosaic law.
Acts 15 clearly records this as you yourself quoted.
You are defending James and the appearance of righteous standards in the N.T. for the exact same reasons James did in the N.T.
This reason reveals that you do not understand the gospel or the role of the law/righteous standard/fruit of the Spirit.
The fruit of the Spirit is the goal BUT only to be achieved by faith/the Spirit within delivering from the desire to do those things.
James, the Fundies, and the Jehovah's Witnesses void Paul's gospel message by the constant focus on the intended results apart from the cause (the gospel).
God recorded James and his presence in the N.T. to be a living exhibit of gospel voiding perversion and only like minded persons cannot see it.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-22-2004 09:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by wmscott, posted 06-22-2004 5:45 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 137 (117657)
06-22-2004 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Cold Foreign Object
06-18-2004 2:39 PM


Re: Books...
What I was trying to say was that I thought that it was sad that you are willing to hate people just because the bible says to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-18-2004 2:39 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-22-2004 10:33 PM Rand Al'Thor has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 126 of 137 (117692)
06-22-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Rand Al'Thor
06-22-2004 7:53 PM


Re: Books...
You are not sad - you are glad.
You and your kind are more moral than God ?
What arrogance !
You hate too Randy - everyone does - it is not a matter of opinion.
You hate christians and the Bible which makes your implication about not hating a lie. You lie and you hate. I only hate what God hates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 06-22-2004 7:53 PM Rand Al'Thor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 06-23-2004 5:15 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 128 by contracycle, posted 06-23-2004 7:57 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 137 (117812)
06-23-2004 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Cold Foreign Object
06-22-2004 10:33 PM


Re: Books...
Of course I hate, it is part of being human. I never said that I don't hate things. I just thought it unfortunate that you are willing to hate people just because a book says to. Not that I am trying to tell you what you should and should not hate. I just think that you should hate something because you personally feel that it is wrong and not because a book tells you to.
Also, where did you get the idea that I hate christians? Some of my best friends are christians. I see no reason to hate someone just because they hold a different set of beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-22-2004 10:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-23-2004 1:53 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 137 (117854)
06-23-2004 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Cold Foreign Object
06-22-2004 10:33 PM


Re: Books...
quote:
You and your kind are more moral than God ?
God isn't very moral, according to his own publicity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-22-2004 10:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 129 of 137 (117913)
06-23-2004 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Rand Al'Thor
06-23-2004 5:15 AM


Re: Books...
Just to interject something here that may have been overlooked. When the Bible says God said, "Jacob I loved, but esau I hated" This is an anthropopathism: ascribing a human emotion or characteristic to God so that we can better understand him.
Hate is the best word that can describe how God's justice and righteousness deal with the unrighteous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 06-23-2004 5:15 AM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 130 of 137 (118011)
06-23-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object
06-22-2004 7:03 PM


No contradictions between Paul and James
Dear Willowtree;
quote:
when James saw the eloquent speech of PETER in Acts 15 he had to drop circumcision like a hot potato. . . . But James didn't understand the gospel way of faith apart from the works of the law. This is the exact problem: He thought is was a license to excuse sin - nobody said that or implied that. This is why he suddenly decided to salvage a portion of his law compliance/ensure salvation doctrine by reeling off a small list of Levitical law. (Acts 15:28-29) " these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication." The perversion is in the "exception", this clearly implies that IF you perform/conform to these righteous standards that this gains standing with God.
James wasn't stating that, that is a clear contradiction of what Christ taught and never would have been supported by the bothers present let alone by Paul who did support the decision reached. James wrote (James 1:3-6) "this tested quality of YOUR faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." that salvation was by enduring in faith. James makes the point in his book that faith without works is dead, and it is by exercising faith or doing works based on faith that we are saved. The works are not what saves, it is the faith that they are caused by, the works are a demonstration of faith, an exercising of faith.. If works are just works they do not save, but if they are an exercising of faith, they demonstrate our faith and prove our faith, which is what saves us. While an absence of works is an indication of a lack of faith. James point was that Christains must have both faith and works.
First off, the book of James was regarded as part of the inspired word of God and is found in the earliest records as being part of the Bible. Second the early Christians had the gift of miraculously knowing whether something was inspired or not and they viewed James as inspired. Paul wrote that all scripture was inspired, which would include the books of James. James also regarded what Paul had written as being scripture, which he hardly would have done if they were having a dispute over doctrines. James was also head of the Christians and was intrusted with the authority do decide issues as he did, now if he perverted things, why didn't God step in and correct it? In fact Jehovah supported the decision as shown by the support of two of his prophets speaking his words in support. (Acts 15:32) "And Judas and Silas, since they themselves were also prophets, encouraged the brothers with many a discourse and strengthened them." So it was impossible for the James decision to be in conflict with Divine will. Paul didn't disagree with James, he even carried the decree to the congregations and taught it. Christ prayed for his followers to be one, united, so if would have been a major blow if there was such a major disagreement that it spilt the NT books into two camps. This major disagreement is never detailed, explained or resolved in the scriptures which it would have been if it was real. Most importantly Paul supported and taught every one of the supposed heresy you say James was guilty of. In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul lists the same things James did and states "that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." To which you stated "The fruit of the indwelt Spirit miraculously makes you conform. This Spirit only comes in by faith and continues to operate only by faith, which said thing called "faith" has nothing to do with works," But you ignore the fact that Paul addressed those words to the congregation "did forewarn YOU" that if they practiced those things they would not inherit the kingdom. Paul warned the Christians of the danger of sinning, they were still imperfect and it took continuous effort to stay out of trouble. Even Paul had to be very careful not to let himself slip into wrong conduct. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27) "Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. . . . but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." Which was just what James had stated, failure to obey the necessary things would result in loss of divine favor. Paul stressed in his letters that we have to not practice sin if are to be saved.
(Hebrews 5:9) "he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,"
Which is what Jesus taught, the whole bases of Christianity. (John 3:16-21) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. . . . Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."
The exercising of faith is doing works, and our works are judged as to whether they are in harmony with God. Our works don't save us, they are only the manifestation of our faith. If we were to do works without faith, it is of no value. Yet if our faith doesn't move us to do works, such as living by righteousness, we really do not have a real faith to save us. That is what James was talking about and why Paul had no disagreement with him. It really is such a simple point, clear as crystal, if we really believe we will act on what we learn. If we don't act, we have not really put faith in what we have heard.
(James 1:22) "However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning."
Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-22-2004 7:03 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 131 of 137 (120527)
06-30-2004 8:16 PM


God Senseless Christians
I have constantly argued in the EvC Forum the cause of atheism, and non-belief in miracles/supernatural to be inadvertedly caused by God.
When He is constantly rejected He will eventually react in wrath. This wrath has Him removing the capacity to want or know Him - "God sense" removal. Persons suffering this wrath all have one thing in common: they don't care what God thinks of them nor do they care about His word, the Bible, and faith in that word.
This means to have any desire for God means God has not given up on you. This means God controls desire for Him and the free will decision to choose or not choose Him is regulated by God. Harden your heart toward God ? The risk is that He will give up on you and remove your "receiver" - the capacity to respond. That capacity is the desire for Him and the ability to respond (acting in faith).
But what happens to persons who profess faith in God, persons who claim to be His, religious people who have Jesus/God on their lips, people who go to church or the synagogue ? Are they automatically immune from the wrath of God because of their surface testimony ?
Jesus mercilessly condemned the established religious community of His day - the Pharisees and scribes, people who CLAIMED to be in God's will, but according to Jesus they were the enemies of God.
Isaiah 6:8-10
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
This is what God told Isaiah.
God is telling Isaiah that He will send him to preach to Israel and Judah - His people - who have completely forsaken Him in their idol worship.
This passage means God will so inundate them with His word (via His prophet Isaiah) for the single purpose of making them dull of understanding, for the single purpose of blinding them from seeing and understanding the truth so they will NOT be converted and healed.
Israel has forsaken God via idol worship and they are completely ignoring God's prophets and their message to return to Him.
These are people who CLAIM to be God's people BUT are not. They are not God's people because God is saying that He will destroy them first by making them "immune" to understanding His word. Isaiah will flood them with God's word but they are so dull from hearing it that this familiarity will be the vehicle that condemns them.
Matthew 13:14,15
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Here in Matthew 13, Jesus quotes Isaiah and says this passage is speaking ALSO about the established religious community of His day - the Pharisees.
The point is that religious people who CLAIM to be in God's will ARE NOT in His will.
They are suffering the prophesied wrath of "dullness of hearing", a condition that insists that the favor of God is upon them, but in reality they are in a God-damned spiritual state. People in this state actually believe that they are in God's will BUT THEY ARE NOT.
Acts 28 repeats the Isaiah curse as it is directed at people who already professed God but chose to "believe not".
Acts 28:
And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Once again, the persons choosing not to believe are persons who already profess God, persons who are so flooded with the word of God that it does not penetrate.
The word of God is eternal - it must always apply.
The established religious community of our day - the Fundementalists (at least in the Protestant frame) are under the exact same condition of curse. They have the word of God coming out of their ears night and day, yet they WILL NOT forsake their perversion of the works of the "righteous requirements" (as they deceptively put it), which originates from Mosaic law, and walk with God exclusively by faith.
The point is that God will disable the ability to walk by faith alone if you continually pervert the gospel message with works/allegiance to a code of conduct as proof of conversion.
The point, as evidenced from scripture, is that if you trifle with God
by not doing what He says He will make you the object of His wrath.
The wrath manifesting itself as revealed in the Bible/Romans 1/Isaiah 6

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by wmscott, posted 07-01-2004 6:13 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 132 of 137 (120927)
07-01-2004 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Cold Foreign Object
06-30-2004 8:16 PM


God Senseless post?
Dear Williowtree;
Was your post a response to mine or are you starting a new topic?
On my earlier post. I hope you understood it and are wiser for it.
In regards to your last post, there are many wrong paths and only one right one, but do you know how to find it? How do you identify the "True Christians"?
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
(James 1:22) "However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-30-2004 8:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-01-2004 9:19 PM wmscott has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 133 of 137 (120990)
07-01-2004 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by wmscott
07-01-2004 6:13 PM


Re: God Senseless post?
quote:
Was your post a response to mine or are you starting a new topic?
I did not respond to your last post because it basically ignored every irrefutable point of mine in the post you responded to.
The "God senseless" post is further evidence from the Bible as to show the Fundementalists how God-damned they really are.
quote:
In regards to your last post, there are many wrong paths and only one right one, but do you know how to find it? How do you identify the "True Christians"?
Absolutely correct that there is only ONE right path.
It is found in the N.T. and the answer is the gospel, which means "good news", which is that God and His benefits can only be obtained apart from the works of the unattainable law by the gospel/way of faith.
The good news is HOW you relate to God - now.
The good news is that the Old way of the works of law IS abrogate IF you are relating by faith.
Most people intepret what I just said to also mean that a person can sin and violate the righteous laws of the law. IF ANYONE THINKS THAT OR FEELS A NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SIN THEN THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL OR WHAT I SAID.
A true christian is only identified by the indwelt Spirit. That indwelling ONLY comes when gospel faith is practiced.
The righteous standards listed in the N.T. ARE ALWAYS listed in the context of the gospel - of which I just explained. This makes the conformity to these righteous standards the exclusive work of the Spirit in us, which is the product of faith and not works.
You cannot even remotely understand this because you are obsessed with the N.T. version of Mosaic law and the pursuit of that fruit via willpower compliance. The point is that the conformity or the lack of conformity does not get a person the Spirit, the vehicle which does the changing - only faith does.
quote:
(James 1:22) "However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning."
This generic comment by James is something everyone can agree with.
The issue is HOW to be a doer of the word. James intended that the works of his precious Mosaic law be the doing.
The N.T. defines doing as the doing of faith apart from the works of the law.
You are under the beguilement of the heresy of James because you defend and twist his aguments to "really be compatible" with Paul. IF they were really compatible then you wouldn't need to say this.
The Book of James is in the Canon to exhibit what righteous looking heresy looks like.
The crooked message of James is intended to be contrasted with the straight messages of Paul in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.
(Acts says Paul was converted on a street called "Straight")
Only deceived perverted by law religious people cannot see it as they constantly try to harmonize that which was intended by God not to be harmonized.
James is a book that has predictible generically good things said in it. The poison is the intent to slander Paul's Christ ordained message. You cannot get around it. Acts 15 has James spewing Levitical law, which is what you JW's do when you focus on the "righteous standards/requirements" of the N.T. Paul in Galatians perfectly exposes the heresy of James as he sent spies to see if Titus was circumcised !
The Fundies do the same, so do the JW's.
Circumcision represents whatever law or synonym you use for law and say "conform". That is exactly what you all do and it is the gospel perverting heresy that Christ through Paul condemns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by wmscott, posted 07-01-2004 6:13 PM wmscott has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 134 of 137 (121003)
07-01-2004 9:43 PM


From the Lens of Hebrews
Hebrews 4:2-11
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Do you know what that word "REST" in the original greek means ?
It is the same word for "sabbath".
Go back and re-read the text and insert the correct word: "sabbath" or "sabbathing" in it.
These verses clearly teach that the belief or faith spoken of, which the children of Israel did not have, is a faith COMPARED TO THE SEVENTH DAY WHEN GOD RESTED FROM HIS CREATION WORKS.
This irrefutably proves that the gospel faith that Paul teaches through out the N.T. is not the "works" caricature of James.
Belief is directly compared to "sabbath rest", which is immediatley shown to be what God did on the seventh day. This means we are to do as God and "cease from our own works as God did from His."
This clearly explains the gospel to have nothing to do with works.
We are to work the work of faith (already shown to be sabbath resting/seventh day) as the ONLY way to escape from committing the same mistake as the children of Israel at Kadesh Barnea.
James the Epistle writer is a perverted liar - it is crystal clear.

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by wmscott, posted 07-03-2004 5:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 135 of 137 (121030)
07-01-2004 10:48 PM


It is kind of interesting that the Word (the red print) (Christs words) says to be hearers and doers, but agree it should be done in faith. Its like if you have faith in the hearing of the word, your going to be doers of the word. Its kind of like faith without works is dead, but that is kind of in agreement with Jesus saying My mother and my brethren are those that hear the word of God, and do it.
kjv Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

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