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Author
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Topic: Change In Egypt
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dronestar
Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: 11-19-2008 Member Rating: 6.5
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Message 46 of 96 (603452)
02-04-2011 1:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by onifre
02-04-2011 1:24 PM
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Re: Other Way Around
Because of my workplace's internet filtering I can only view the video in stop-and-go portions. But I think it a good video, nice visuals, and it has really good drums to assist in random beatings. I believe the Guantanamo Bay's staff has it on their Ipod's favorite list.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by onifre, posted 02-04-2011 1:24 PM | | onifre has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 47 of 96 (603455)
02-04-2011 1:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 40 by dronestar
02-04-2011 1:20 PM
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dronester writes: NWR writes: If the US is actively undermining Mubarek, then I think that's wrong just as their past support for his repressive regime has been wrong. You think it is wrong to actively undermine a human-rights-violating-dictator? I certainly do.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by dronestar, posted 02-04-2011 1:20 PM | | dronestar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 48 of 96 (603456)
02-04-2011 1:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by dronestar
02-04-2011 1:27 PM
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dronester writes: NWR writes: I think it's wrong to be meddling in the internal affairs of other nations. Hmm. Is it wrong for the police/social-workers to meddle in the internal affairs of a family: parent's abuse of their children, wife-beating? Do we not share a kinship with all the people of the world, regardless of boundaries? Just asking. No, of course not. What does "kinship" have to do with either Nation States or the laws of those Nation States?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by dronestar, posted 02-04-2011 1:27 PM | | dronestar has replied |
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2973 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: 02-20-2008
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Message 49 of 96 (603463)
02-04-2011 2:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by jar
02-04-2011 1:50 PM
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No, of course not. Sure it does. What then would the role of the UN be if not to do just that? I don't think drone was saying this is the job of the US, just that it should be the job of some entity. - Oni
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by jar, posted 02-04-2011 1:50 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by jar, posted 02-04-2011 2:48 PM | | onifre has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 50 of 96 (603464)
02-04-2011 2:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by onifre
02-04-2011 2:44 PM
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onifre writes: No, of course not. Sure it does. What then would the role of the UN be if not to do just that? I don't think drone was saying this is the job of the US, just that it should be the job of some entity. - Oni The role of the UN is discussion and consensus building. And the "No, of course not" referred to whether or not the social workers and courts were wrong. They operate within a set environment, the laws of that jurisdiction. Edited by jar, : expand.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by onifre, posted 02-04-2011 2:44 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by onifre, posted 02-04-2011 2:55 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 51 of 96 (603467)
02-04-2011 2:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by sfs
02-04-2011 12:06 PM
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Great Powers Traditionally Influence Global Events
sfs writes: hooah212002 writes:
Right, but the only thing outsiders should be concerned with is what is good for the Egyptian people, not OUR government.
That seems like an excessive generalization. Why is it true? If we had a choice between an Egyptian government that was good for its own people and was also virulently anti-American, and one that was equally good for its own people but friendlier toward us, why shouldn't we be concerned about which was in power? And I agree. The bottom line is how global events affect my job, my standard of living, and my security. Would you let a family of criminals move in on the block if you could influence the real estate agent, the zoning commission, and the police to keep it from happening? Whether or not it was your business you could darn sure make it your business!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by sfs, posted 02-04-2011 12:06 PM | | sfs has not replied |
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2973 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: 02-20-2008
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Message 52 of 96 (603468)
02-04-2011 2:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by jar
02-04-2011 2:48 PM
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The role of the UN is discussion and consensus building.
Are they not supposed to enforce international law and intervene in matters of human rights? Like in Ruwanda and the like. - Oni
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by jar, posted 02-04-2011 2:48 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by jar, posted 02-04-2011 3:09 PM | | onifre has replied |
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dronestar
Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: 11-19-2008 Member Rating: 6.5
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Message 53 of 96 (603469)
02-04-2011 2:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by jar
02-04-2011 1:50 PM
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Jar writes: What does "kinship" have to do with either Nation States or the laws of those Nation States? Oh, . . . I don't know . . . some would say a silly thing like our shared humanity should trump man-made laws that violate human rights. Have you ever read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?: Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by jar, posted 02-04-2011 1:50 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by jar, posted 02-04-2011 3:06 PM | | dronestar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: Other Way Around
Hooah writes: The difference is: I am putting the interest of my human brethren ahead of my government or my country. We are all humans and ALL deserve to live peacefully. I don't feel as though I have the right to tell another group of people what is good for them based off of MY interests. Well I'm not gonna stand around watching the world raise up at my expense. Granted my country has not always been altruistic and has been self serving. Granted this is wrong. Its also wrong to lose ones job and stand homeless on a corner as cheaper labor gets shipped overseas. WE dont want the US middle and working class to suffer simply so that the rest of the globe gets their turn at prosperity. I am all for a balance, but never a total revolution. If this sounds assholish, so be it. Survival requires tough measures.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by hooah212002, posted 02-04-2011 12:47 PM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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Taq
Member Posts: 10044 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.3
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I said that to mean: we don't need to go in and try and rectify the situation. The Egyptian people know what they want, they can take care of it. We've done enough damage supporting that regime Not only that, but Biden thinks Mubarak is a pretty OK fella.....
After reading the local paper during my lunch hour it appears that the Obama administration is taking a "Mubarak out now" stance. They are pushing for Mubarak to step down and for the vice president to step in as of right now with general elections in September. The one sticking point seems to be that the Egyptian constitution names the head of parliment as the next in succession if Mubarak should step down.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by hooah212002, posted 02-04-2011 1:21 PM | | hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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hooah212002 writes: Here is a pretty good description of why the people are protesting, written by an Egyptian Historian. http://blogs.colgate.edu/khanegyptprimer.pdf A few tidbits:
Since Nasser’s death in 1970, Egypt was ruled by Anwar Sadat until he was assassinated in 1981, and since then, by M. Hosni Mubarak. Upon coming to power, Mubarak instated an Emergency Law, which suspended many constitutional protections and basically gave the state complete jurisdiction for anything falling under the category security. Presently, there are no guaranteed rights to privacy, free speech, assembly, press, or even a trial. Although there are a number of members of the judiciary who have tried to maintain its independence from the state, they are regularly thwarted and often removed or worse.
Why are Egyptians in the streets protesting?First of all, they want a real democracy. No one is fooled by the elections that just play musical chairs with the people already in power. They want real choices. Yes, many want the choice to vote for the Muslim Brotherhood. But that has not been the major theme in these protests, and in fact has been less important than anyone expected. The real issue is that the people want fair and free elections with all choices on the table. They want what most Americans want here. And if this is true, I support it. My point is, we cant have the Egyptians end up as prosperous if the prosperity comes at our expense.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by hooah212002, posted 02-04-2011 3:21 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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dronestar
Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: 11-19-2008 Member Rating: 6.5
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Message 57 of 96 (603474)
02-04-2011 3:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
02-04-2011 2:51 PM
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Re: Great Powers Traditionally Influence Global Events
Phat writes: The bottom line is how global events affect my job, my standard of living, and my security. Are you saying in all matters of ethics, human rights, and dignity you'll prefer to base your decisions only on selfish considerations?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by Phat, posted 02-04-2011 2:51 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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dronestar
Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: 11-19-2008 Member Rating: 6.5
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Message 58 of 96 (603475)
02-04-2011 3:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
02-04-2011 2:58 PM
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Re: Other Way Around
Phat writes: Well I'm not gonna stand around watching the world raise up at my expense. But isn't that exactly what you have been doing the past 30+ years while the US has been bribing dictatorships around the world?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by Phat, posted 02-04-2011 2:58 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 59 of 96 (603477)
02-04-2011 3:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by dronestar
02-04-2011 2:56 PM
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Re:
dronester writes: Jar writes: What does "kinship" have to do with either Nation States or the laws of those Nation States? Oh, . . . I don't know . . . some would say a silly thing like our shared humanity should trump man-made laws that violate human rights. Have you ever read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?: Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia Sure. And it is also accepted as International Law. But again, what does that have to do with the topic or Egypt? This is a classic example that shared humanity does not trump man made laws. There are even protocols and procedures to enforce such laws, but outside intervention into a countries government to interfere with elections is NOT one of the options. Neither is outside surreptitious intervention to destabilize another countries regime.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by dronestar, posted 02-04-2011 2:56 PM | | dronestar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 60 of 96 (603479)
02-04-2011 3:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 52 by onifre
02-04-2011 2:55 PM
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onifre writes: The role of the UN is discussion and consensus building.
Are they not supposed to enforce international law and intervene in matters of human rights? Like in Ruwanda and the like. - Oni Only in limited ways, with the sanction of the Security Council and with the permission of the government(s) of the area(s) involved. Police actions can be legal, but as stated, only in certain circumstances.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by onifre, posted 02-04-2011 2:55 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 73 by onifre, posted 02-04-2011 5:18 PM | | jar has replied |
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