Women's Reactions to Rape

The stat I heard was about one in three women will be raped in their lifetime. Is that accurate, do you think?(I wasn't that relieved, I should say. Any rape is too much.)

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Well, they might very well find his prior conviction for rape

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Unlikely.

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or discover that there is absolutely no connection between the man and the woman

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Rare.

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or discover that the death happened in a place known to be the scene of many rapes.

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Rare.Once again, we see this TV/Movie concept of rape here. Most rapes are not conducted by people with a past criminal record of rape. They're not conducted by strangers. They're conducted in the victim's home. It's not some sort of shadowy assailant lurking in the bushes. (added by edit - I'm not sure what happened, my posts have been behaving strangely.)

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But if a woman is being attacked and thinking "hrm, I'd better not kill this guy, because I'm not sure I can make self-defense stick", then she needs to radically re-evaluate her priorities.

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No - she won't try it because she doesn't want to get killed. It's only after the fact that the further consequences Trixie discussed kick in.

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Many of you here are pontificating about how a woman should react when threatened with rape without even realising that, in a situation like that, women think they are being threatened with murder.

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Why should their reaction be any different to a murderer? Why wouldn't you fight back if someone wanted to kill you? Every woman should assume that their rapist is going to murder them.

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No, they shouldn't assume that. That is the absolute antithesis of recommended advice, especially if the rapist is armed. Again, you're back to your "TV/Movie rapist hiding in the bushes" notion of rape.Most rapes *don't* end up as murder. They end up as rape. However, there is the looming *threat* of murder if one resists. If the rapist is unarmed, resisting physically (*not* with a weapon) is recommended. If the rapist is armed, even that is not recommended.Have you ever been the victim of a violent crime? It's the same sort of thing for all crimes. (Warning: Another Personal Anecdote Time!). I had a friend who was working at a pizza place and some guys came in with guns and robbed it. I asked him what it was like. He told me that he always pictured it would be sort of scary, sort of exciting, or whatnot. But all he could think about, the entire time was, "I'm going to die... I don't want to die...". And you know what? If he resisted, he very well might have.

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But I know how to read. And everything I read tells me that self-defense doesn't make a bad situation worse - quite the opposite. The vast majority of people who defended themselves made their situation better.

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Not Self Defense With A Weapon.This message has been edited by Rei, 10-01-2004 05:43 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Recommended by who? All the recommendations I've read, from rape survivors and self-defense professionals, stress resistance at every opportunity. They stress awareness and self-confidence. They stress giving yourself options through preparation.What they never, ever stress is submission. Never ever. Fuck, what idiot would resist to protect somebody else's money?But isn't your life, health, and well-being worth resisting for? Especially when the odds are, it won't make things worse?

Who has ever been murdered because they resisted a rape? How would you even know? I think you're overreaching, here.

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Recommended by who? All the recommendations I've read, from rape survivors and self-defense professionals, stress resistance at every opportunity.

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Find me *One* authoritative source (i.e, not like the NRA or anything) on the subject of rape which recommends *arming yourself* at all times to prevent rape, and I will bake you two dozen cookies and mail them to you

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They stress awareness and self-confidence. They stress giving yourself options through preparation.

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I want to see the recommend carrying a handgun at all times in your purse, and if someone tries to rape you, struggle to reach your purse, get the gun out, fight with them over the gun, and hope you don't end up dead.

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What they never, ever stress is submission. Never ever.

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They *do* recommend not physically resisting if the person is armed, mind you.

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And you know what? If he resisted, he very well might have.

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Fuck, what idiot would resist to protect somebody else's money?

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So, if he owned the pizza store, should he have resisted armed assailants? Should he have pulled a gun out from the counter and started firing? That's a great way to end up dead.

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But isn't your life, health, and well-being worth resisting for? Especially when the odds are, it won't make things worse?

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Getting shot with your own gun is not making things worse??? Assuming that you even have a chance to get to it, which realistically, you don't?

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Who has ever been murdered because they resisted a rape? How would you even know? I think you're overreaching, here.

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You pull a gun during a violent crime, you drastically increase your odds of ending up dead - because the perpetrator now sees it as a threat on *their* life, and they're already in a violent situation.This message has been edited by Rei, 10-01-2004 05:45 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Strawman, again. We're not talking about weapons, we're talking about self-defense, which includes but is not limited to, weapons. Everything I've read leaves it to your individual discretion at that point, based on how prepared you are, to what degree you can find/improvise a weapon, etc. But over 80 percent of rapes occur with an unarmed assailant.Never is submission recommended. For money? No. For his life or safety? Yes. (I shouldn't have said "other people's money" like who owned it matters. It doesn't. But we're not talking about money, are we? We're talking about a woman's life.) You're making a lot of conclusions that you're not supporting. What is your evidence that realistically, the victim of a rape would not have a chance to stick her hand in her purse at some point during the encounter, and point her purse at her assailant? An action that you could perform in two seconds with one hand?I've never heard a rape survivor regret resistance. To the contrary, more than half of survivors who resisted said it made things better. I've seen no evidence from you to rebut that point. You simply repeat strawmen. Support, please.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 10-01-2004 05:46 PM

Oh it definitely happens. I watched a documentary where a killer, originally just a rapist, murdered a woman for resisting. He described how it happened and it was horrific. She used mace and he got so scared he decided to kill her with his knife.The more frightening aspect to me was that according to him she had scored a direct hit in his face with the mace and he still was able to kill her.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Well, that's fair enough.It remains the case, though, that the majority of women who resist feel that it improves their situation.

Cheap, really cheap. Perhaps you didn't notice the fact that everyone around them had guns and they were already prisoners taken under threat of arms?Whether they said no or not is wayyyyyy beyond the point once the threat of immediate death is explicit. I believe I made that clear. I think the conditions all of them were under was more important to note than the widespread nature, unless conditions were not widespread. I think it is pretty clear that the conditions at Abu Ghraib are not the same all over Iraq.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Agreed. Cool at being a true swordsman. What about a swordcane or a sword umbrella? Knives can't cut a man in half but they can kill pretty quickly if you are good. Girls can use them quite well. Most self defense experts talk about this though I guess I am unsure where they get all that info. My experience in various attacks has been surprise attacks where I was left no room to use a weapon UNTIL I got some distance using all my other available options/weapons.Everyone I have ever heard on the topic dissuade women from relying on a gun until they have extremely good training with a specific gun, and then not to use it until they have the opportunity. Reaching for a gun as an automatic reflex may end up being a really bad mistake.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Find me *One* authoritative source (i.e, not like the NRA or anything) on the subject of rape which recommends *arming yourself* at all times to prevent rape, and I will bake you two dozen cookies and mail them to you

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Strawman, again. We're not talking about weapons, we're talking about self-defense, which includes but is not limited to, weapons.

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Nonono. We're talking about guns. Read your first post. You weren't talking about general self defense - you were talking about guns. I've been arguing against the benefits of guns in a rape situation the whole time - not against self defense. I think it is important that women know what means there are to try and stop a rape; however, keeping yourself armed at all times is not one of them.

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Everything I've read leaves it to your individual discretion at that point, based on how prepared you are, to what degree you can find/improvise a weapon, etc. But over 80 percent of rapes occur with an unarmed assailant.

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Never is submission recommended.

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You need to read more. From the link I gave you earlier: It is not worth getting yourself killed to not get raped.

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For money? No. For his life or safety? Yes. (I shouldn't have said "other people's money" like who owned it matters. It doesn't. But we're not talking about money, are we? We're talking about a woman's life.)

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No. We're talking about a woman getting raped. I'm the one advocating that she not do anything like go for a gun, or physically resisting an *armed* opponent (note: physical resistance is not the only type!) that endangers her life.

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You're making a lot of conclusions that you're not supporting. What is your evidence that realistically, the victim of a rape would not have a chance to stick her hand in her purse at some point during the encounter, and point her purse at her assailant? An action that you could perform in two seconds with one hand?

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Requirements for this scenario:1) One hand free, in reach of the purse.
2) Purse nearby at all times, when home, away, etc (*LAUGH!*)
3) Assailant doesn't move purse
4) Woman not pinned
5) Assailant isn't armed in a way to pose an immediate threat to the woman's life
6) Woman is conscious, and fully uninhibited
7) Assailant doesn't notice the woman reaching for her purse in the middle of his attempt to rape her and find it suspicious.
8) Assailant doesn't see woman grab something in the purse, or doesn't find it suspicious if she does.
9) Woman can work zipper with one hand in the middle of someone trying to rape her.
10) Woman can aim and fire the gun in the middle of a rape attempt, and hit on the first shot.Please, be realistic here. I can't think of a single rape case for which I know the details of in which this would be even close to plausable. And if she *WAS* caught going for her gun, the rapist would see it as an attempt on his life. What do you think happens next, Crashfrog?

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I've never heard a rape survivor regret resistance.

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Almost all resistance to rape is *unarmed resistance* to an *unarmed attacker*, for the precise reason that even if you have a gun, rape almost always comes as a *surprise*. You don't have the warning of a crash from someone breaking into your house or anything (although the statistics about involving guns in situations like that are pretty bad on their own). You have things like a date who you're kissing, you tell him he should go home, and he grabs your arms and holds you down. You have a creep on the street who when talking to you, suddenly pulls a knife and holds it to your throat. You have someone at a party who offers you a glass of water to help you "sober up", and you go in and out of consciousness after drinking it. Etc.

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Support, please.

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Are those two NEJM articles about how you're 43 times more likely to have yourself or a family member shot by your gun (and, that of the 7 breakin-related homicides that occurred in which someone was killed by the homeowner's gun, in 5 of them the victim was a member of the homeowner's family) - and the study that showed a 3fold increase in homicides in gun-owning households - or do you want one for the specific case of drawing a gun in self defense?If so, I'll have to look. From a quick search, there are a lot of statements out there from police chiefs advising people not to resist armed crime, in that most of the deaths that they encounter from such crime were escalated when the victim tried to fight off the attacker (for example, Joseph McNamara, of the San Jose Police Department, testified about this before congress). But I'm having trouble finding studies on the topic, whether positive or negative.This message has been edited by Rei, 10-01-2004 06:33 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I've never seen one that was anything but, at best, an 18" stiletto. A solid cane is more useful, as I'm sure you'd be aware. Knives and swords seem to be restricted in the places that I've lived; I don't know if you have to get a permit or what but concealing anything longer than a 4 inch pocketknife appears to be illegal.But yes, a good fighting knife can be immediately lethal, like the Fairbairn-Sykes knives. Interesting.

You've clearly missed the point. The OP wasn't asking "why don't more women have guns?" but rather, "why don't more women take serious efforts to defend themselves, including but not limited to gun ownership"? As that point has been reiterated by me and others throughout the thread, I don't know how you missed it.Guns are not the subject here, but they are material. The subject is why self-defense is not, apparently, of interest to women. You need to search more. Your recomendations do not represent the majority of rape survivors or self-defense specialists, who stress resistance against unarmed assailants and discretion against armed ones. The rape endangers her life. The rapist runs off, because rapists are opportunistic cowards. Which is what happens in 20 percent of the cases where a woman resisted her attacker. I'd like what I asked for, which was support for this statement:

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You pull a gun during a violent crime, you drastically increase your odds of ending up dead - because the perpetrator now sees it as a threat on *their* life, and they're already in a violent situation.

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I maintain that an attacker is more likely to flee in the presence of lethal force than to press an attack unarmed.

No no no. Sorry, another one of my smartass blurts. I didn't mean to be a bigot and I do NOT think all homosexuals go around raping people.What I meant to illustrate was that something like rape would seem from my perspective to ignite your temper more than 'freeze' you.

First of all, better to get killed than to live a lifetime of being raped over and over by some violent opresser, right?Second of all, he may well kill you anyway. If you're cornered, you may as well try and fight it out. Our killer instincts have survived for billions of years throughout our evolution, we may as well use them. I'm sorry, but if he has a knife you can step back and shoot him. That's why you have a gun. If somebody even gets halfway to you, then whip it out and tell him one more step and you'll shoot. If that doesn't get through his ears to his brain, make another passageway.Okay, the next part describes a scenario that really has some potholes in it.Requirements for this scenario:1) One hand free, in reach of the purse.
2) Purse nearby at all times, when home, away, etc (*LAUGH!*)
3) Assailant doesn't move purseTell him to not touch your stuff. If he doesn't listen, get the hell out before he goes from your belongings to you.
4) Woman not pinnedI can think of only one possible 'pin' where one couldn't scratch, bite and kick. Especially if he doesn't have her arms, in which case one could gouge his eyes out.
5) Assailant isn't armed in a way to pose an immediate threat to the woman's lifeHe's RAPING HER!! That's a pretty serious threat, isn't it? He's always a threat, are you saying it's best for said victim to lay down and spread 'em?!6) Woman is conscious, and fully uninhibitedIf he pulls a knock 'em and stock 'em, go shoot the bastard when you wake up.7) Assailant doesn't notice the woman reaching for her purse in the middle of his attempt to rape her and find it suspicious.He'll have to reach out to get the purse away from her, and if he does so while on top of her his weight will shift to one side, making it comparatively easy to thrash out from under him.8) Assailant doesn't see woman grab something in the purse, or doesn't find it suspicious if she does.
9) Woman can work zipper with one hand in the middle of someone trying to rape her.Ever heard of 'pistol whipping'? They're heavy enough to be a threat without bullets, so you could just thwack him with the purse. A good clock between the eyes will at least damage him.10) Woman can aim and fire the gun in the middle of a rape attempt, and hit on the first shot.If he reacts after the first shot his concentration will be on the gun. If he grabs for it, hit him with the other hand.I feel like I'm teaching a women's self defense class or something. This is just instinctive reacion.Look, the point is that if he's raping her he's damaging her and could very well kill her if she doesn't do something. So far it looks to me that you're saying it's bad to resist a violent assault like rape. If rape is really a show of power, it won't be very effective when the victim is kicking him in the balls and biting his thumb off.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)