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Author Topic:   Why Creationism
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5637 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 61 of 91 (67682)
11-19-2003 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dan Carroll
11-17-2003 8:36 PM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"Why not? We have the same knowledge of good and evil that he does. How can one entity have a leg up in decision-making over another when the two are drawing on the same level of knowledge?" by dan carroll
We have the same knowledge of good and evil but god is not subjected to the temptations like we do. this temptations are the ones that make us fail when we make desicions. When we make desicions we dont always know the imidiate consequences of them but god knows the imidiate consequence of every desicion and thats why I listen to his advice or read it through the bible.
"So... basically, God's the toughest, and might makes right?
What a sick idea. "
god is definetly the toughest but the thing here is that he created us and we simply obey him because in the end it will be good for us. Believing in the survival of the fittest is even sicker. this form of thinking leads to a lot of human rights violatons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 8:36 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by zephyr, posted 11-19-2003 9:55 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 64 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:02 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4572 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 62 of 91 (67683)
11-19-2003 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Itachi Uchiha
11-19-2003 9:51 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
quote:
god is definetly the toughest but the thing here is that he created us and we simply obey him because in the end it will be good for us. Believing in the survival of the fittest is even sicker. this form of thinking leads to a lot of human rights violatons.
You won't be an effective debater in this arena until you can untangle your own inappropriate conflation of these two things:
1. the unavoidable observation that in nature the fittest survive
2. advocating the artificial selection of people and/or animals that some subset of humanity has labeled as "the fittest."
Do you still fail to realize how completely different these are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 9:51 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5637 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 63 of 91 (67684)
11-19-2003 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dan Carroll
11-17-2003 8:36 PM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"1) Yep. Read up a little. The theory of evolution makes plenty of linear sense all on its own.
2) Feel free to find all the errors you want in Origin of the Species. In fact, I encourage it. Always good to route out errors." by dan carroll
Hers some information for you.
Genetics: No Friend of Evolution
A highly qualified biologist tells it like it is
by Lane Lester
First published in:
Creation 20(2):20-22,
March-May 1998
Genetics and evolution have been enemies from the beginning of both concepts. Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, and Charles Darwin, the father of modern evolution, were contemporaries. At the same time that Darwin was claiming that creatures could change into other creatures, Mendel was showing that even individual characteristics remain constant. While Darwin’s ideas were based on erroneous and untested ideas about inheritance, Mendel’s conclusions were based on careful experimentation. Only by ignoring the total implications of modern genetics has it been possible to maintain the fiction of evolution.
To help us develop a new biology based on creation rather than evolution, let us sample some of the evidence from genetics, arranged under the four sources of variation: environment, recombination, mutation, and creation.
Environment
This refers to all of the external factors which influence a creature during its lifetime. For example, one person may have darker skin than another simply because she is exposed to more sunshine. Or another may have larger muscles because he exercises more. Such environmentally-caused variations generally have no importance to the history of life, because they cease to exist when their owners die; they are not passed on. In the middle 1800s, some scientists believed that variations caused by the environment could be inherited. Charles Darwin accepted this fallacy, and it no doubt made it easier for him to believe that one creature could change into another. He thus explained the origin of the giraffe’s long neck in part through ‘the inherited effects of the increased use of parts’.1 In seasons of limited food supply, Darwin reasoned, giraffes would stretch their necks for the high leaves, supposedly resulting in longer necks being passed on to their offspring.
Recombination
This involves shuffling the genes and is the reason that children resemble their parents very closely but are not exactly like either one. The discovery of the principles of recombination was Gregor Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there.
For example, from 1800, plant breeders sought to increase the sugar content of the sugar beet. And they were very successful. Over some 75 years of selective breeding it was possible to increase the sugar content from 6% to 17%. But there the improvement stopped, and further selection did not increase the sugar content. Why? Because all of the genes for sugar production had been gathered into a single variety and no further increase was possible.
Among the creatures Darwin observed on the Galpagos islands were a group of land birds, the finches. In this single group, we can see wide variation in appearance and in life-style. Darwin provided what I believe to be an essentially correct interpretation of how the finches came to be the way they are. A few individuals were probably blown to the islands from the South American mainland, and today’s finches are descendants of those pioneers. However, while Darwin saw the finches as an example of evolution, we can now recognize them merely as the result of recombination within a single created kind. The pioneer finches brought with them enough genetic variability to be sorted out into the varieties we see today.2
Mutation
Now to consider the third source of variation, mutation. Mutations are mistakes in the genetic copying process. Each living cell has intricate molecular machinery designed for accurately copying DNA, the genetic molecule. But as in other copying processes mistakes do occur, although not very often. Once in every 10,000—100,000 copies, a gene will contain a mistake. The cell has machinery for correcting these mistakes, but some mutations still slip through. What kinds of changes are produced by mutations? Some have no effect at all, or produce so small a change that they have no appreciable effect on the creature. But many mutations have a significant effect on their owners.
Based on the creation model, what kind of effect would we expect from random mutations, from genetic mistakes? We would expect virtually all of those which make a difference to be harmful, to make the creatures that possess them less successful than before. And this prediction is borne out most convincingly. Some examples help to illustrate this.
Geneticists began breeding the fruit fly, Drosophila melanogaster, soon after the turn of the century, and since 1910 when the first mutation was reported, some 3,000 mutations have been identified.3 All of the mutations are harmful or harmless; none of them produce a more successful fruit flyexactly as predicted by the creation model.
Is there, then, no such thing as a beneficial mutation? Yes, there is. A beneficial mutation is simply one that makes it possible for its possessors to contribute more offspring to future generations than do those creatures that lack the mutation.
Darwin called attention to wingless beetles on the island of Madeira. For a beetle living on a windy island, wings can be a definite disadvantage, because creatures in flight are more likely to be blown into the sea. Mutations producing the loss of flight could be helpful.
The sightless cave fish would be similar. Eyes are quite vulnerable to injury, and a creature that lives in pitch dark would benefit from mutations that would replace the eye with scar-like tissue, reducing that vulnerability. In the world of light, having no eyes would be a terrible handicap, but is no disadvantage in a dark cave. While these mutations produce a drastic and beneficial change, it is important to notice that they always involve loss of information and never gain. One never observes the reverse occurring, namely wings or eyes being produced on creatures which never had the information to produce them.
Natural selection is the obvious fact that some varieties of creatures are going to be more successful than others, and so they will contribute more offspring to future generations. A favourite example of natural section is the peppered moth of England, Biston betularia. As far as anyone knows, this moth has always existed in two basic varieties, speckled and solid black. In pre-industrial England, many of the tree trunks were light in colour. This provided a camouflage for the speckled variety, and the birds tended to prey more heavily on the black variety. Moth collections showed many more speckled than black ones. When the Industrial Age came to England, pollution darkened the tree trunks, so the black variety was hidden, and the speckled variety was conspicuous. Soon there were many more black moths than speckled [Ed. note: see Goodbye, peppered moths for more information].
As populations encounter changing environments, such as that described above or as the result of migration into a new area, natural selection favours the combinations of traits which will make the creature more successful in its new environment. This might be considered as the positive role of natural selection. The negative role of natural selection is seen in eliminating or minimizing harmful mutations when they occur.
Creation
The first three sources of variation are woefully inadequate to account for the diversity of life we see on earth today. An essential feature of the creation model is the placement of considerable genetic variety in each created kind at the beginning. Only thus can we explain the possible origin of horses, donkeys, and zebras from the same kind; of lions, tigers, and leopards from the same kind; of some 118 varieties of the domestic dog, as well as jackals, wolves and coyotes from the same kind. As each kind obeyed the Creator’s command to be fruitful and multiply, the chance processes of recombination and the more purposeful process of natural selection caused each kind to subdivide into the vast array we now see.
References
Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, 6th Edition, John Murray, London 1902, p. 278. Darwin did see natural selection acting on this and other causes of variation as an important factor in giraffe neck evolution, but not many are aware of his reliance on inheritance of acquired characteristics.
The different species of Galpagos finches have been observed interbreeding at times, clear evidence that they belong to the same created kind.
Dan L. Lindsley and E.H. Grell, Genetic Variations of Drosophila melanogaster, Carnegie Institution of Washington, Publication No. 627, 1967.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 8:36 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:11 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 75 by Quetzal, posted 11-19-2003 10:46 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 91 (67685)
11-19-2003 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Itachi Uchiha
11-19-2003 9:51 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
quote:
When we make desicions we dont always know the imidiate consequences of them but god knows the imidiate consequence of every desicion and thats why I listen to his advice or read it through the bible.
Well hang on then... is Genesis correct or incorrect when it says our knowledge of good and evil is like God's? (In other words, does he have greater knowledge of good and evil than us, making Genesis wrong, or does he have the same knowledge as us, making Genesis right?)
quote:
god is definetly the toughest but the thing here is that he created us and we simply obey him because in the end it will be good for us.
Who's to say it's good for us? Someone whose knowledge of good and evil is the same as our own?
Please, people... no more circular logic. It's killing me. Not physical death, true, but each time I die a little inside.
quote:
Believing in the survival of the fittest is even sicker.
Yeah, I'm with ya, man. The idea that the organism which is best adapted to its environment will have the easiest time coping with that environment is straight from the anus of satan himself.
It's definitely worse than the idea that one peron can rule everything and everyone in the universe, not because of greater wisdom, but just because he says so.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-19-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 9:51 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 10:18 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 69 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 10:24 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5637 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 65 of 91 (67686)
11-19-2003 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 9:37 AM


Re: WRONG!
"God is some sort of holy concierge?
Hm... this idea intrigues me. Let's say I really, really want to have a threesome with Angelina Jolie and the girl who plays Chloe on Smallville, but it seems impossible to have it... "
NO hes some sort of a loving father. He concedes only does petitions which are worthy and not vain. He will not give us something that will make us sin also. If he did i wouldve already given angelina a ride on my boat if you know what i mean

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 9:37 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:13 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 91 (67687)
11-19-2003 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha
11-19-2003 9:58 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
quote:
At the same time that Darwin was claiming that creatures could change into other creatures
Connotes a nasty misunderstanding right off the bat.
I'll let someone else handle the many errors in this article. I would be interested to hear what Lane Lester's high qualifications are, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 9:58 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 91 (67688)
11-19-2003 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Itachi Uchiha
11-19-2003 10:05 AM


Re: WRONG!
quote:
He concedes only does petitions which are worthy and not vain.
It's not vanity. I'd want them to enjoy it too.
quote:
He will not give us something that will make us sin also.
Which brings us back to the still-unresolved question as to why he gets to define sin.
quote:
If he did i wouldve already given angelina a ride on my boat if you know what i mean
I do indeed, my good man. *manly grunting moment*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 10:05 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 10:37 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5637 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 68 of 91 (67689)
11-19-2003 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 10:02 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"Well hang on then... is Genesis correct or incorrect when it says our knowledge of good and evil is like God's? (In other words, does he have greater knowledge of good and evil than us, making Genesis wrong, or does he have the same knowledge as us, making Genesis right?)"
We have the same knowledge of right and wrong as god does without the shadow of the doubt but the difference is that we cant look past the moment were living and god already knows the last day of this earth. what i mean is that god knows if the desicion you make today will come bak to haunt you even if it seems as the right one at the moment. Do you now see the differnce? We are only capable of making desicions influenced by the circumstances that surround us at the moment. Different options will arise and we wont know in the end which will be the best one. thats when we turn to God in preyer seeking his advice
"Who's to say it's good for us? Someone whose knowledge of good and evil is the same as our own?
"Please, people... no more circular logic. It's killing me. Not physical death, true, but each time I die a little inside."
like i said before you wont know if many of your desicions were the right ones until time passes. you can only see the moment youre living. God can go through time because he created it and look into the future to see if the desicion benefits us or hurts us. Until you experience god for yourself you ont understand this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:02 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:30 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5637 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 69 of 91 (67690)
11-19-2003 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 10:02 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"It's definitely worse than the idea that one peron can rule everything and everyone in the universe, not because of greater wisdom, but just because he says so."
He is of greater wisdom and thats why he gives advice to us. he doesnt make you. will god appear to you and force you to serve him just because he said so? no. He will reveal himself only to those who by their own will decide to serve him. Thats why ill always respect your opinion. if god himself doesnt force you to believe him i wont either because he gave you your free will and nobody can take it away

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:02 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:34 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 91 (67691)
11-19-2003 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Itachi Uchiha
11-19-2003 10:18 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
quote:
We have the same knowledge of right and wrong as god does without the shadow of the doubt but the difference is that we cant look past the moment were living and god already knows the last day of this earth. what i mean is that god knows if the desicion you make today will come bak to haunt you even if it seems as the right one at the moment. Do you now see the differnce?
Then how can a wrong action taken under such circumstances even be called sin?
If I do something that, in the moment, seems like the good thing to do, and later, due to knowledge I could not have had access to, turns out to have been a bad choice, where's the evil?
Sin is a catch-22. Either our knowledge is equal to God's, making God's definition of sin up for debate, or our knowledge is insufficient to choose right or wrong. If God wants us to have free will, why doesn't he give us all the knowledge we need, so we can make informed decisions?
If he doesn't want us to have all the facts, then why let us choose at all? It would be like giving an autistic child a handgun and saying, "now be good, that's not a toy."
In such circumstances, who would you blame if the gun went off? The autistic child who doesn't know any better, or the idiot who gave the autistic child a gun?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 10:18 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 10:56 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 77 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 11:03 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 91 (67692)
11-19-2003 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Itachi Uchiha
11-19-2003 10:24 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
quote:
He is of greater wisdom and thats why he gives advice to us. he doesnt make you. will god appear to you and force you to serve him just because he said so? no.
True. But if heaven and hell are real, then there is at the very least a system of reward and punishment in place, if not outright coersion by force.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 10:24 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5637 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 72 of 91 (67693)
11-19-2003 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 10:13 AM


Re: WRONG!
"Which brings us back to the still-unresolved question as to why he gets to define sin."
Because he is the creator. Is the same as why is the goverment the one who decides law. it was created to maintain a healthy order. but sin is everything that goes against what god stands for. it incledes lying, adultery etc etc etc you how it goes. since he created the world he also provided the rules for healthy living those who do not obey will be punished with the consequences of their choices

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:13 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 73 of 91 (67694)
11-19-2003 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Charles Munroe
09-09-2003 2:08 AM


Quoting a portion of the opening message:
quote:
Why do we need Creationism, or for that matter Genesis? The New Testament functions quite nicely without the Old Testament and avoids all the controversial materiel.
I suspect that this topic started going bad at about message 2 (or was it part way through message 1?).
In general, this topic is getting overheated.
My quick interpretation of the opening message, is that the New Testiment is the important part of the Bible, and that details of the Old Testiment, including the creation, are not worth getting bent out of shape over.
I encourage all to look back at the beginning of the topic, a make an honest attempt to follow up on the intended theme.
I'll not do a "cooling-off period" topic closing yet, but I suspect one is just down the road.
Everyone, be nice now.
Adminnemooseus
------------------
Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
too fast closure of threads

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Charles Munroe, posted 09-09-2003 2:08 AM Charles Munroe has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:40 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied
 Message 78 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-19-2003 11:06 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 91 (67695)
11-19-2003 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Adminnemooseus
11-19-2003 10:37 AM


quote:
In general, this topic is getting overheated.
I'm happy to accept an off-topic smack-down, but for the record, I don't think there was any anger going on. (Jazzlover can correct me if I'm wrong there.)
{A note by edit from Adminnemooseus - By "overheated" I mean something like frantic and chaotic. Perhaps I shouldn't have added that "be nice" part - I just generally like to encourage people to be nice to each other.}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-19-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-19-2003 10:37 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5894 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 75 of 91 (67700)
11-19-2003 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha
11-19-2003 9:58 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
As the Great Horned AdminMoose has pointed out, this is seriously off-topic. If you'd like to propose an argument based on Dr. Lester's apologetics (rather than simply copy-and-pasting), in another thread, I for one would be happy to address some of the glaring misconceptions and mistatements in this article.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-19-2003 9:58 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

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