|
Author
|
Topic: Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
|
Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
|
Re: You left out one important bit
robinrohan writes: But if God is outside of time, He does not know ahead of time what we are going to do. There is no "ahead of time." So we have free will. And how do you reconcile this "outside of time" concept of God with the God of Genesis, who let there light on the first day, and then saw it was good, and then there was an evening and a morning, and then on the second day he created the firmament, and so forth and so on until it was time to rest? The God of Genesis and was very much a part of time. What you've actually created is a God of confusion for whom everything exists all at once in the same moment and who has no idea of the effects of his actions. Not the standard picture of an all-knowing, all-powerful God. You've also created a God of the "Who, me?" He's created it all, but none of it is his fault, it's all our fault. We didn't do anything but get born, nonetheless it's all our fault. He sounds more like the product of a typical human guilt complex, more psychology than religion. There are probably some quarters where these contradictions heighten the sense of the great wonder and mystery and unfathomability of God, but another way of looking at it is that they're as contradictory as they sound. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 6:24 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
Message 47 of 306 (213276)
06-01-2005 8:40 PM
|
Reply to: Message 43 by Cthulhu
06-01-2005 7:08 PM
|
|
Re: You left out one important bit
Sacrificial God Man, The Mithraism and Early Christianity I have to admit I haven't completely read through these links. Both are attempts to claim that Christianity built on these pagan religions, for which there is not one shred of evidence. All the evidence shows that it developed completely out of Judaism. As for any superficial similarities, there have been many religions that involve human sacrifice and even literal cannibalism. THere have certainly been many that involve varieties of animal sacrifice. All this shows is that human race still vaguely remembers from the fall of our first parents that something is necessary in the realm of sacrifice to atone for our sins before God -- but the Sacrifice that truly saves is not in human power. Some religions incorporated more elements of the intuition/memory than others. However, these are all mere shadows. The real thing that God promised from Eden is Christ. Nobody but the sinless perfect Son of God could save us. The death of sinners and "gods" can't possibly save.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Cthulhu, posted 06-01-2005 7:08 PM | | Cthulhu has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 48 of 306 (213277)
06-01-2005 8:45 PM
|
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
06-01-2005 8:37 PM
|
|
Re: You left out one important bit
There are no contradictions. God had the task of presenting himself to fallen humanity in terms we could grasp, we who are not only mere creatures but fallen creatures, who can't comprehend the infinite God as He is. We live in time so God presents Himself to our time-consciousness. There is no reason He couldn't have created everything in a flash, but He lays it out by days so that our minds can have something to fasten onto {Edit: This is in fact the view of John Calvin}. There's a great deal in scripture that is done strictly for our benefit, as God's condescension to our weaknesses. This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 08:48 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:37 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 94 by Percy, posted 06-02-2005 9:50 AM | | Faith has replied |
|
Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
|
|
|
Message 49 of 306 (213278)
06-01-2005 8:48 PM
|
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
06-01-2005 8:28 PM
|
|
Re: You left out one important bit
Faith writes: First things first. You claimed IIRC that it's hard to decide among religions because they all say basically the same thing and I showed you that Christianity is truly Something Else. Do you acknowledge this or not? You don't recall correctly. You said, in essence, the Bible says BELIEVE IT, and I replied, "And other religions send pretty much the same message. Who to believe?" It appears you think there's some universal truth that one should seek the one, right and true religion by finding the one that offers you "salvation by another's death in your place." As I said, this is merely a notion specific to Christianity, not the structure of truth. You've got to stop presuming your personal religious beliefs are universal truths for everyone else. But this is drawing us off topic. We're seeking an explanation for why God creates souls he knows he'll one day condemn to hell. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 8:28 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 9:27 PM | | Percy has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 50 of 306 (213281)
06-01-2005 9:01 PM
|
Reply to: Message 39 by Asgara
06-01-2005 5:44 PM
|
|
Re: some are created solely to be damned
If god knows that people will be atheists at death and still brings them into being, or allows them to come into being, or whatever your brand of god does then it stands to reason that these particular people are created solely to be damned. This is true.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."* 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."* 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."* 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? This is all true. And yet ALL WHO HEAR THE GOSPEL ARE INVITED. All who sincerely want to be saved God's way will be saved. There is no way for anyone to know who is to be saved and who not. Any unbeliever could at any moment become a believer.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 5:44 PM | | Asgara has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 9:58 PM | | Faith has not replied | | | Message 72 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 11:44 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 51 of 306 (213284)
06-01-2005 9:27 PM
|
Reply to: Message 49 by Percy
06-01-2005 8:48 PM
|
|
Re: You left out one important bit
First things first. You claimed IIRC that it's hard to decide among religions because they all say basically the same thing and I showed you that Christianity is truly Something Else. Do you acknowledge this or not?
You don't recall correctly. You said, in essence, the Bible says BELIEVE IT, and I replied, "And other religions send pretty much the same message. Who to believe?" Sorry if there was some kind of misunderstanding. I was answering the statement that they "send pretty much the same message." They do not. But actually, if belief itself is the topic, other religions DON'T ask you to believe anything in order to be saved. Most religions teach things you are to DO to be saved, but belief isn't part of that -- even if you are to believe things, they aren't promised to save you, but believing in the sacrifice of Christ IS promised to save you. Belief is a huge factor throughout the Bible:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible "Believe" occurs 143 times in 131 verses: Page 1, verses 1 - 25 Exd 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee. Exd 4:5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. Exd 4:8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. Exd 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour [it] upon the dry [land]: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry [land]. Exd 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. Num 14:11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? Deu 1:32 Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God, Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. "Belief" occurs once: 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: It appears you think there's some universal truth that one should seek the one, right and true religion by finding the one that offers you "salvation by another's death in your place." As I said, this is merely a notion specific to Christianity, not the structure of truth. You've got to stop presuming your personal religious beliefs are universal truths for everyone else. That's how they are presented in the Bible, as THE God's message to ALL humanity and I'm not going to stop presuming that because that IS the faith God gives. I didn't make these things up. And it's for your sake that anybody would bother to try to convince you. I perseonally don't need you or anybody to believe anything, but it does scare me to see how people here put themselves in danger. However, take it or leave it. It's a free country.
But this is drawing us off topic. We're seeking an explanation for why God creates souls he knows he'll one day condemn to hell. He doesn't say why. I'm sure we'll all understand it one day. {edit: Actually that's not what we're seeking. We're seeking to find out if Christ is cruel. I just posted a quote to Asgara that says God does indeed condemn some to hell from the beginning. It doesn't say why. This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:28 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:30 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:48 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 107 by Percy, posted 06-02-2005 10:16 AM | | Faith has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 52 of 306 (213285)
06-01-2005 9:33 PM
|
Reply to: Message 27 by Percy
06-01-2005 4:23 PM
|
|
Re: Free will
"...the flaw in Schraf's soul..." Finally, some notoriety! A thread about the flaws in my soul.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 4:23 PM | | Percy has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
Re: You left out one important bit
You keep going back and forth. First it's something God grants you, then it's something you did.
Perhaps it's both. Here's my scriptural evidence: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God which worketh in you . . ." Yes it is both. Thanks.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:20 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
J. Davis
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 54 of 306 (213287)
06-01-2005 9:37 PM
|
|
|
Hi. I skimmed through the 50 messages received in a few hours.  Suffice to say, this message will be rather meaningless at this stage, as it's swallowed up by the tumult. Couple of things I want to say. My main objective isn't to judge the individual called Shraff, as I'm not that mean that I would pick on him to be judged like that. No, my objective was to state clearly that God isn't cruel. The following statement impressed me the most;
Faith writes: Look, the Bible is VERY clear. What happens here at EvC is that everything about it is aggressively and proudly doubted so that its very clear message is trashed. But it is very clear: believe and be saved -- the ONE thing people will not do is what it asks -- BELIEVE IT. It warns repeatedly against believing what the "world" says, what the "wise" of the world, the philosophers or thinkers of the world say -- and yet this is what unbelievers do anyway and are even exhorted to do as if it were the rational thing to do. But Jesus says to believe. Therefore they are "without excuse." To add to that, I'd just like to say that if there is a sighn saying "mind the hole" and you read the sign and don't mind the hole and fall down, who's fault is it?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 10:01 PM | | J. Davis has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 55 of 306 (213289)
06-01-2005 9:41 PM
|
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-01-2005 4:25 PM
|
|
Re: You left out one important bit
Faith, for a moment, I'd like you to believe, without a single shadow of a doubt in your mind, that you are male. Can you do it? No? Well, then why do you think that someone can simply believe in "things unseen" by trying hard? I can't just "decide" to have religious faith, any more than you can just "decide" to believe that you are male.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 4:25 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
J. Davis
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 56 of 306 (213291)
06-01-2005 9:44 PM
|
Reply to: Message 55 by nator
06-01-2005 9:41 PM
|
|
Re: You left out one important bit
But Shraff, there are things you don't know nor can know but that you must simply believe. I have no evidence that I am he that you have known but you must believe that I know you. Do you believe I know you? You see, if it's the truth that I know you, then you were right to believe. Do you know me? Do I need evidence to show I know you? Well, that's an example anyway. This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-01-2005 09:45 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 9:41 PM | | nator has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 57 of 306 (213293)
06-01-2005 9:48 PM
|
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
06-01-2005 5:24 PM
|
|
Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
Jar, you're really a very nice man.  If there exists a God or gods, I would certainly hope s/he/it is at least as moral as I try to be. My morality and sense of fairness seems to be at odds with the God touted by most of the Christians I have discussed such things with. If I ever meet your God, I think we'll get along great. I like a God who throws a good barbeque.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by jar, posted 06-01-2005 5:24 PM | | jar has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 10:00 PM | | nator has replied |
|
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
|
|
|
Message 58 of 306 (213296)
06-01-2005 9:49 PM
|
Reply to: Message 56 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 9:44 PM
|
|
But Shraff, there are things you don't know nor can know but that you must simply believe. Are there? If there were or there weren't, how would you know?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 9:44 PM | | J. Davis has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 63 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 10:02 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 59 of 306 (213298)
06-01-2005 9:52 PM
|
Reply to: Message 55 by nator
06-01-2005 9:41 PM
|
|
Can one choose to believe?
Could be that one can't. I never thought one could but I figure it's worth a try, just read what Jesus says and believe him, but if you can't you can't. There's nothing in what he says that contradicts anything you know for sure, unlike my knowing I'm not male. It's simply a matter of believing WHAT HE SAYS. Oh well. If you can't you can't. Edited some stuff in. This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:54 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:56 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 9:41 PM | | nator has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
|
|
Message 60 of 306 (213299)
06-01-2005 9:58 PM
|
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
06-01-2005 9:01 PM
|
|
Re: some are created solely to be damned
quote:
All who sincerely want to be saved God's way will be saved.
I sincerely wanted to be saved, but I couldn't make myself believe. Nobody can make themselves believe anything. So, if I tried sincerely for years to believe, but couldn't, God is going to damn me for all eternity?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 9:01 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2