how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?

Christianity? Or man....
You may want to thnk about that one.
I think Jesus made it very clear who was to be included in his second commandment. Anything else falls short of the glory of God, and couldn't be true Christianity.That brings up a point to me, Jesus was possibly the only true Christian ever. Did they make those comments because they are Christian, or because they aren't?*edit*
Or did you mis-understand the meaning?This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 01-23-2005 10:34 AM

The problem is that people are so so easy to fool - that's why testimony is so unrealible.Let me tell you about a show appeared in the UK a few weeks ago it was called Derren Brown: Messiah. In this show Derren Brown traveled to the states and investigated the nature of faith. As part of his travels he met with a group of non-believers. During the course of his meetings, he has then "feel the power of the lord" - many felt the presense, felt to their knees, fainted etc. However it's all a trick. The whole point of the excuse is to make it known that apparently supernatural phenomena can be generated by clever charlatans like himself.That's not to say it's all lies but it's just not reliable in any meaningful sense. If it does something for you - good, but that's it as far as I am concerned.

quote:

---

Some of you may even ridicule it, thats ok, that is to be expected, and it is a sign that it is true.

---

And that's just bollocks of the first order.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-23-2005 10:36 AM

Thank you for the apology, and duly accept it. Exactly, if you assert something to be true, you have to expect people to demand you prove the truth of that assertion to a given standard (of proof). In this I ask no more of religion than I do of science. That’s hardly unreasonable is it? there is a big diference in saying "i believe this to be true" and "this is the truth" You would be right if it stopped there. In my experience it doesn’t. to illustrate (and I admit I’m gonna be stretching the metaphor and taking it to extremes but here we go: --Edit-- Spelling--This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-23-2005 18:02 AM

You know what pisses me off? The fact that you or I have no idea what it was to live back then. We have no concept of what is right or wrong back then. When murder is neccesary, or when rape is a part of life.
We don't even know what they meant by the word rape back then, as the meaning has changed over the years.Did you know that if you raped someone, you had to take care of them the rest of your life? So then, how does it make sense that you would mis-treat someone you are going to be stuck with forever? Or did the devil by means of decpetion change the meaning of the word, or the way we think of rape, so that people like you or I would look at the bible, and say, what a bunch of crap.I just can't picture every man abusing every woman in the name of God.
Or can I see man attacking his enemy for no-good reason.You also claim to know how slavery was back then. Maybe for some due to the harsh conditions of the world (remember, there were no seven elevens back then) being a slave might be a step up in life.I am sorry, but I am no expert on the OT, but I am learning. I really wish to address these subjects right here on this forum, when I know enough about them to debate. But you just come out claiming all these things, and I am trying to bring to your attention that maybe we just don't understand how the world worked back then.Can you indicate where in the bible it speaks of child molestation, or approves of it?
When you say torture, do mean the harsh punishments of the day?
Wasn't this also neccesary to stop people from doing wrong? It's not like they had cell phones and 911 back then.But the cool thing, is I don't think any of your references can be related to the NT, or what Jesus taught us. I have found the truth through the NT, not the OT. So to me it is not even neccesary to know the OT to intitially find the truth.

hear hear!

Yea, but is drinking really good for you?Is there a warning label from the surgeon general on the doors of churches?

Exactly so, and as we don’t understand the historical context of the bible and it morals (back when they were contemporary) then how can we apply moral values of a culture we can’t claim to truly know.Did I claim the bible exonerates child molestation? No. My comments were in response to the segment of text posted by Phatboy that stated: And Which is saying, those without moral absolutes (as prescribed by religious texts) can not argue against any kind of behaviour as unacceptable. Thus those without religiously prescribed moral absolutes would have to tolerate all these repugnant vile acts of nastiness without complaint . Sorry If I find myself taking fault with that kind of thinking, but that’s just the way I am. It is totally posible to hold a set of moral absolutes with out the supposed authority od the bible or any other religious text, so please dont assume just because I dont subscribe to a faith, my morals are anything other than absolute.

not the point.the point is the drinker believes it is.

Well his little escapade just proves the power of God, it doesn't falsify it. So basically, no one can bring about the presense of the Lord, except the Lord himself. That whole show is so wrong on so many levels, it also proves my statement that with every lie, it takes 7 truth's to clear it up. There are so many lies within that story, and that show, that I would be writing to you for a week.What those people felt is real. What people felt when they saw the Passion of the Christ is real. It has nothing to do with who is preaching it. They will meet their maker also, and I feel sorry for those who mock the Lord. It's one thing to not believe, but to do stuff like that knowing full well what you are doing.The bible verses I showed you mean that if we as Christians do not go out and preach the word, then the rocks will. The word rock is a symbol, meaning anything, but that they could be considered a non-believer.We sing a song in church called "Sing (or the rocks will get to)". If we don't sing unto the Lord then the rocks will. In other words you cannot stop it. This is apparent because 2000 years later we are still worshipping God.Remember this, you cannot imitate something unless there is a real counter part to it. The devil only imitates, and that show is the perfect example of that. You should have seen the power of the Lord in that show, but all you saw was how false it is. That's exactly what the enemy wants you to believe, so he won again. He's happy with you not believing, and will leave you alone, he is contempt. And there you have it, I prophecied it, and it happened. Where is the bull? All I see is truth.Even you desparatly seeks the truth.

We are dealing with truth here, not lies.

Agreed, based on the topic here. But when the truth dwells within you, you start to understand those morals. At least that is what I am finding for myself. The key thing is to understand the morals of the law, and not the literal translation. We cannot do this unless, we know the whole bible, and know the truth.So its so easy to read a scripture from the OT and say "look! what a bunch of crap" So I never assumed that, or anything about you. What I can say that is if your morals come from yourself, then you are your own God. However, if your morals match those of the bible, then the laws of God, are clear to you, and you got a great start at knowing the truth.Are you a "relativist"?

Well, there is truth in that, I did say that I think he is a smart person, and he would not be decieved.You know, I never claimed to know the truth ever before, I just claimed I didn't know. So I do not really know what it is like to claim to know the truth, and not actually know it. ( can of worms opens) as I feel I know the truth now. Or that the truth knows me. This does not make me perfect in any sense.But there is instruction in the bible as to how to avoid being decieved. That is why I keep telling people that the bible is our best guide in finding the truth and growing in it. Once we find it, that is just the start. We never stop learning.We all fall short of the glory of God. Like I said before, its the effort that counts.

RiverRat wants us to look inside and we will find the truth within ... That is why the Bible is the best written standard which best describes the character of God so as to reinforce the ideas that God would say to us.Its like counterfeit money. Experts at detection get that way by not by studying counterfeit bills but by studying the original money. Then...if a counterfeit comes along, it is so obvious as to be easily spotted. If Christians had no Bible to study, God would find another way to communicate, perhaps, but the Bible was strongly and thoroughly unchanged in the 500 years of its printing.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-23-2005 11:20 AMThis message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-23-2005 11:20 AM

Yet you do exactly that with your characterisation of the TOE. In addition, you characterize th ebehavior of the Nazis to the TOE even though they themselves said they were acting in the name and spirit of Christianity.My point is, it was not the TOE that classified races or assigned relitive merit to them. It was Christianity. Of course, it was those very writings that served as the basis for slavery and predjudice. The Bible can most certainly be used to justify such acts and in fact, was so used.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm sorry but those are just nonsense phrases. There is no meaning in there at all.In addition, they do not answer the question. Even if "God is truth, Jesus is truth, and the Holy Spirit is truth." you have offered no support for such an assertion. Since it is statements such as those that form the basis of religion, what possible reasons can you have for believing the above is true?What possible reasoning do you have to believe the above excludes any other GOD or GODs?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion