Some Historical Facts:

I wrote:"Russia, led by the horrendous tyrant Stalin contributed a great deal to the fall of Germany."Contributed a great deal does not equal give all the credit. It really pisses me off to have a very clear statement distorted like that. It takes a lot of gall to tell some one that they said something they didn't say, particularly when it's right there in the quote. The US was essential to the victory but without Great Britain or Russia it might have been too late. I don't know if we could have done it alone.
But that is all speculation. Nuclear weapons might have had the same result with Germany that they did with Japan. But as history has it many gave their lives fighting in that war and the Soviet and British contributions were important in the outcome.World War II was not fought and won solely by the US. That is my point. That doesn't mean it was fought and won solely by anyone else either.lfen

Very good and balanced comment, Ifen.

You left out our amazing victory over Grenada.The US Invasion of Grenada:Tal, your brilliant tour de force has left me blinded by your brilliance, or is it I'm just baffled by your bullsh*t?lfen

I think it's even sadder that there are Americans who so get off on blowing smoke up their own butts. And other Americans so eager to slap them on the back and help them in their self inflationary enterprise.lfen

Robin,Tal wants you to stop thinking and do what you're told, fer Christ's sakes. Have faith, believe your leaders, shut up with the questions. Yours is not to reason why, but to do and die.lfen

You are right about that. Reagan not only came up with a reason to attack Grenada he managed to spin it as a great victory. Like me telling how I beat some 5 year old in a fight and making myself out to be a tremendous hero in the process.The US Invasion of Grenada:lfen

It's like the Limbaugh dittoheads. They won't think for themselves. They won't think about the bull wash Limbaugh cobbles together. They just second it and repeat it ad nauseum and then think they are witty for repeating stale warmed over bs. Pathetic.lfen

The US government toppled democratically elected governments in Guatamala and Chile and supported brutal military dictatorships in those countries that brought a great deal of suffering to the people.What changes has happened in the the US Government since then? Are we willing to apologize to the citizens of Chile and Guatamala and make any restitutions to them?I've been lied to by my government so often and often by the President including the current administration that I've no idea what it would take to convince me there is any truth at all to their stories. Bush knows how to lie with soft "sincere" sounding demeanor. That just means he is very very good at lying, i.e. many Americans who want to believe the President find it easy to believe him. I have no reason to believe and many reasons to distrust him. For one thing his story doesn't make sense. He isn't concerned about the Chinese oppression of Tibet cause there is no oil or strategic concerns for the US there. He doesn't seem concerned by the lack of freedoms in Saudi Arabia. I wonder why?There is oil and strategic concerns in Iraq, but his neo con advisors are not really experts in the middle east or in Islam at all. For those who believe might makes right cause God makes might it makes sense that all we have to do is send the army in and make those people God fearing freedom loving citizens of a democracy. It's not that simple. It will take a long time for that to happen.lfenThis message has been edited by lfen, 06-29-2005 12:38 AM

What is not in dispute is that almost all Iraqis are glad that Saddam is gone.There are however a few disputes regarding how he was made to go bye bye, a few more about what was and is still happening to the Iraqi people by those that came to overthrow Saddam, and quite a but more over the extremely piss poor planning regarding their health and security not to mention what sort of govt was supposed to follow.You will read wise words in our own Declaration of Independence that a public does not overthrow their govt lightly and will suffer tyrants rather than rush into something which could be worse. This has turned into one of those cases, made worse by how we conducted our operations. Why can't you be just a really tough and skilled soldier? Why do you have to be exactly what we said is bad in dictatorial regimes? Ahem... they already know what a free market is. Unless you are suggesting a completely noncaring govt like the US, which does not include any degree of socialism? My guess is they'll not only end up needing some degree of socialism, they will enjoy it. When a nation is in that state of poverty, laissez faire capitalism is not going to be the answer. But yes, they already know how to buy and sell things in market economies.By the way you can quit preaching to the choir that we need to be there for a long while. Regardless of how wreckless and stupid this war was, we have incurred a debt to these people that we must make good to them, as well as needing to REGAIN stability in that region.We created a hotbed of terrorism where there was not one before, now we need to stop it.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

quote:

---

Are we willing to apologize to the citizens of Chile and Guatamala and make any restitutions to them?

---

Don't forget Nicaragua, where the US government funded a terrorist war against a popular and democratically elected government.Or, currently, Venzuela, where our government's hostility to a popular and democratically elected government is not kept secret.

And I'll repost my reply.

That has nothing to do with my post.

Sure it does.

---

"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..."
-Army Cadence"A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Can I get you to go down the list and correct the factual errors in your OP?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But it is related only tangentially. It doesn't address the points that Crashfrog was actually trying to make. Perhaps I should let him speak for himself, but maybe it's useful to show that someone can actually read his post and understand what his point is.His main point is that the early photos of the Iraqis celebrating their liberation by the Americans were inaccurate or staged. Your post does not really respond to that.His second point is that while the Iraqi "celebrations" over their liberation by the Americans were rather muted, the more recent demonstrations against US occupation have much better attended. Admittedly, you did make some comments relevant to this point.