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Author Topic:   The Collapse of Darwinism
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 31 of 68 (116639)
06-19-2004 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by PeriferaliiFocust
06-18-2004 8:26 PM


Hurray, Hurray for Wallaceism!!

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Steen
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 68 (120355)
06-30-2004 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by PeriferaliiFocust
06-18-2004 8:26 PM


Talking about "Darwinism" when discussing evolution is like talking about "Wrightism" when talking about flying. The Wright brothers have only minimal impact on space shuttle design, f.ex, as the field have grown since the first flight. Evolution is no different, by the very mechanism of science. Thus "Darwinism" is inherently a dishonest term.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 33 of 68 (210433)
05-22-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Biophysicist
04-01-2004 12:12 AM


Re: This is da bomb!
This wacky creepyness of the skull appears in Gould as well. It seems to be the result of attempts to think the vertebral archetype BEYOND human teleology. I dont think this is possible. I could be wrong. It would be in the history of biology however.
I used to *try* to think such like, however I only took it to the series along the spine and not into the head. I have now found that second guessing the connection without the chemistry well presented is not going to get biology any farther than the best maths do in creating tensions as already occurred to the conclusion "that it is the population not the progeny timed stupid". It might still be workable without the concommittant pumpkin face vision but I'll hold that for Halloween if I can still be that shallow or compuationally irrelevant.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 05-22-2005 06:52 PM

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 34 of 68 (210572)
05-23-2005 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by PeriferaliiFocust
06-18-2004 8:26 PM


I guess it might be
quote:
why the hell do we still have to be worshiping him? (i know i'm exaggerating, sorry) The theory of evolution (as you know) would have been revealed without Darwin
because SJ Gould reinscribed "constraints" where Darwin admitted "difficulties in theory" and he did so by coming out with a seperation that even Richard Dawkins can perceive. I am beginning to wonder if the notion of "transitional" as APPLIED by CD is also metaphysical but was intended (IN THE 19th CENTURY MIND SET)as not, by DrD. I dont think that species selection is really as important, relative frequency wise as Stephen suggests (i could have guessed wrong) but as long as it is possible that people are moving over to Punctuated Equilibrium in fact we are likely to keep Darwin alive figuratively for more time even though a relation to adult parents comes out differently with Wallace etc.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 35 of 68 (211298)
05-25-2005 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by SRO2
04-04-2004 11:04 AM


Re: You gotta' be kidding me!?!
Evolutionists "hold a presuppostion world view"? This from a person that evidently clings to beliefs in 2000 year old arcaehic mysticism from musty old scrolls about pillars of fire, stoning whores and snakes passing out apples from trees...sheeez...planet of the apes is more viable....
Good example of infidel worldview.
RM

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CodeTrainer
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 68 (212349)
05-29-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Biophysicist
04-01-2004 12:14 AM


Re: One other thing...
First a disclaimer. The web site in question is evidently one of Islamic doctrine. The link did not work for me, and the following consists merely of answers to some of the misinformation posted.
From Biophysicist: The part about the "exposed frauds" of evolution being retained in textbooks today is hogwash; the film is very careful to avoid mentioning any particular fraud that's still around. They're also very careful NOT to mention that it was other scientists, most all of whom were "evolutionists" themselves, that discovered these frauds and set the record straight.
=> (1) My son's high school biology textbook, as of circa 1999, had references to Haeckel's drawings, but in a positive light, though without endorsing them, and leading the poor student to believe in the discredited recapitulation idea.
(2) My own H.S. biology textbook in 1967 carried Piltdown man full court, even though it had been discredited decades before. The point about evolutionist frauds is generally that they take so long to expunge, as there is little else to replace them with in support.
(3) Evolutionists themselves have generally been the ones who expose frauds because they are the majority of those who work with them, and creationists are never specifically invited to view them by those who control them.
(4) The recent Chinese dino-bird fraud, caught pretty quickly, still served to show how eager and gullible an otherwise well-educated crowd can jump at something to fill one of the more glaring discrepancies in the evidence.
((From "Andya Primanda": I'd like to sue US creationists for dumping their creationist material to unsuspecting Islamic countries. Especially Turkey. ))
==> Interesting you say that, as Charles Darwin named the Turks as one of the races he viewed as inferior to the European.
((From "mike the wiz": the documentary shown numerous examples of living fossils. It shown dragonflys next to dragonfly fossils, frogs next to frog fossils (no offense Crash), rats, and I think a few others.))
==> What "living fossils" do is to show that the presuppositions based on fossils are flawed. Evolutionists assume it is a record of the history of biology. Then they get surprised when they find the live one.
(("mike the wiz": Thanks Andya, I guess normalizing selection would probably explain it somewhat. Yes, you are right, I suppose the species doesn't have to change mophologically.))
==> In fact "natural selection" was a creationist idea that preceded Darwin, to explain why species in the wild remained stable in form and type. Throw a hundred dogs into the wild, and they'll revert in a few generations to a more standard dog-kind like those that are already wild.
((SR02: "Evolutionists "hold a presuppostion world view"?..))
==> More like a pagan religion, like this one from Jeremiah's day: "Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us." (Jer 2:27)
((NosyNed: 2)I am not aware of any species at all that has been shown to remain unchanged over anything more than a few million years. The fact that we only have a fossil may mean that what we see is unchanged but that leaves other changes that are not fossilized.))
==> This quote shows how much the pronouncements made by evolutionists, presented as science, are indeed "presuppositions".
((Biophysicist: creaitonists will insist that evolutionists are always "changing their theories" and fighting amongst themselves. ))
==> Is that a denial that they are "changing their stories"?
((jar: But there are other examples where the record shows that there has been much change.))
==> No more than the discrete living species and kinds alive today. The fossils do show a lot of dead species. As to change between groups to the degree of mice to humans, it is nowhere except in the fertile imaginations of the true believers of darwinistic evolution.
((Ediacaran: those are still excellent transitional fossils, now joined by all the feathered dinosaur transitionals being discovered in China.))
==> Yep. Chinese dino-birds. I guess you haven't heard.
Oh, and they finally found some rocks that they thought could say were pre-Cambrian? As transitionals they are not. They are discrete species. Just the word "transitional" manifests the unfounded assumption of a continuum, which is just not there.
((Ediacaran: Darwin's evolutionary tree of life is supported not only by the many transitional fossils, starting with the few he mentioned in his book, but the fossil record as a whole.))
==> Sure, to someone who looks at discrete separate forms and plays a little game of morphological connect-the-dots. Nobody needed a "fossil record" for that.
((Edicaran: Darwin's ideas are further confirmed by molecular biology and genetic sequencing,))
==> Evidence of the strength of illusory world-views, a la "The Power of Myth". Like using the existance throughout morphological similar species (apes and man) of what are labelled damaging mutations. These are a standing witness against the evolutionist ideas of common descent through mutation and selection, as it would have had to work backwards.
((..creationists are probably unfamiliar with the concept of peer-reviewed scientific literature, such as Science and Nature.))
==> A mechanism that enforces conformity, and one that has been excoriated by such (even atheist) well-recognized scientists as Jose Majeiro. There is at least one peer-reviewed creationist journal, as the creationist perspective is effectively heretical in the view of evolutionist-dominated journals.
((The Marx material was a nice propaganda touch..)
==> History tells us that Karl Marx wanted to dedicate his book to Darwin, as the alternative views of creation carry ideas that are poisonous to Marxism, such as the Christian view. When Mao Tse Tung consolidated power in China, the first thing they concentrated on in the schools was not Marxism, et.al., but on teaching darwinistic evolution.
((Let's hope that the ICR and the "Intelligent Design" creationists don't import that tactic from their Islamic colleagues.))
==> This shows historical ignorance, at minimum.
((..video may have revealed the whole problem with creationists - apparently their DNA spirals..))
==> This quote and its context revealed one of the main problems with anti-creationists. Underestimating its scientists and again showing ignorance of the subject.
((From PeriferaliiFocust..I believe in evolution, not darwinism,..))
==> (From merriam-webster.com a theory of the origin and perpetuation of new species of animals and plants that offspring of a given organism vary, that natural selection favors the survival of some of these variations over others, that new species have arisen and may continue to arise by these processes, and that widely divergent groups of plants and animals have arisen from the same ancestors; broadly : biological evolutionism
((Steen: Thus "Darwinism" is inherently a dishonest term..))
==> The reason I use the term darwinism is that the word "evolution" has been used dishonestly as referring to variation within species, which is a wildly divergent idea from common ancestry of all species.
Have a good day!
- Alan

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 37 of 68 (212361)
05-29-2005 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by CodeTrainer
05-29-2005 1:22 PM


What on earth are you talking about ?
I gather that you would deny evolution of diverse lineages by any mechanism of common ancestry, but what do you mean when you say:
CodeTrainer writes:
These are a standing witness against the evolutionist ideas of common descent through mutation and selection, as it would have had to work backwards.
Perhaps if you would (1) clarify what you mean by this statement and (2) restrict your discussion to one issue of contention at a time, I might be able to debate this with you.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 68 (212743)
05-30-2005 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
04-04-2004 4:42 PM


Re: The videos
Are you sure that this could not have been a slightly deformed human skeleton of some sort?
Why I'm really asking this is to find some things out about where evolutionists stand
Lucy.

porteus@gmail.com

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 39 of 68 (212757)
05-31-2005 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by joshua221
05-30-2005 10:52 PM


Lucy -- deformed?
Are you sure that this could not have been a slightly deformed human skeleton of some sort?
Why I'm really asking this is to find some things out about where evolutionists stand
The simple answer is "no". However, there are endless details in the whole answer which you aren't really going to be interested in learning. If you were honestly interested in learning about it then it might be worth your while to dig into it. However, I don't think you are.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 68 (212758)
05-31-2005 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by NosyNed
05-31-2005 12:14 AM


Re: Lucy -- deformed?
IIRC fragments from over 300 separate individuals representing Australopithecus afarensis have been found to date. Is that correect? How many "Lucys" have been found so far?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 41 of 68 (212762)
05-31-2005 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
05-31-2005 12:20 AM


Re: Lucy -- deformed?
My understanding is that the 300 number is it. I'm pretty sure that none of them are any where near a complete as Lucy. Most are one or a few bones fragments is my impression.
However, the do, when all summed up give a reasonable representation of the species (and it seems some idea of the evolution of the group over time ).

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 68 (213952)
06-03-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by NosyNed
05-31-2005 12:14 AM


Re: Lucy -- deformed?
quote:
The simple answer is "no".
What leads you to this conclusion Nosy?

porteus@gmail.com

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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 43 of 68 (214051)
06-03-2005 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by joshua221
06-03-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Lucy -- deformed? why conclude so
There are a number of reasons that someone not expert in the science involved may conclude that Lucy is not a deformed individual.
1) a number of expert anatomists have examined the specimens and do not think there is any deformity. Even though there is always a lot of contentious arguement in this field.
2) There are a large number of bits and pieces of afarensis which match up with each other.
3) I can look myself at some of the pieces and agree that they look reasonable.
4) Afarensis fits in to the time line and the species before and and after in a reasonable way. There are hundreds of specimens and the relationships fit well enough.
5) No one, that I know of, has offered examples of deformed modern humans which produce the particular set of differeneces. (Teeth, hips, long bones, the bits of skull that we have).

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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 68 (214063)
06-03-2005 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by NosyNed
06-03-2005 10:02 PM


Re: Lucy -- deformed? why conclude so
Weren't there also some footprints found that added additional weight since there was no sign of problems is ambulation?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Trae
Member (Idle past 4307 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 45 of 68 (214110)
06-04-2005 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Andya Primanda
04-04-2004 5:09 AM


-deleted, Ned had covered my question-
This message has been edited by Trae, 06-04-2005 04:51 AM

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