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Author
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Topic: For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5697 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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From simple-minded ideologues who draw unsubstantiated connections in order to legislate an enforced code of morality? It is substantiated.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 06-27-2005 4:05 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5697 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 17 of 304 (220129)
06-27-2005 4:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by mikehager
06-27-2005 4:10 PM
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Re: Here we go again.
If negative effects of pornography made by adults for adults could be demonstrated, then it would be a different story. How is Ted Bundy's own statement not a demonstration of the negative effects of pornography made by adults for adults?
"My experience with pornography ... is once you become addicted to it, (and I look at this as a kind of addiction like other kinds of addiction), I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more graphic kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep craving something that is harder, something which gives you a greater sense of excitement. Until you reach a point where the pornography only goes so far, you reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if maybe actually doing it would give you that which is beyond just reading or looking at it."
Ted Bundy
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by mikehager, posted 06-27-2005 4:10 PM | | mikehager has replied |
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Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member
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Message 18 of 304 (220130)
06-27-2005 4:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Tal
06-27-2005 3:55 PM
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"The whole family just panicked on me. I worked pretty quick," he said. "I strangled Mrs. Otero. She passed out. I thought she was dead. I strangled Josephine. She passed out. I thought she was dead. Then I went over and put a bag on Junior's head." He later said about Mrs. Otero: "I went back and strangled her again." When questioned by the judge about the motivation for the Otero slayings, Rader said: "That was part of what you call my fantasy." Pressed further, Rader said, "Sexual fantasy, sir." Rader has not been accused of sexually assaulting his victims, but he admitted masturbating over some of them. ...He said he told Nancy Fox he had "sexual problems," forced her to strip, then handcuffed her and strangled her with a belt. After she was dead, he said, he removed the handcuffs from her body and masturbated over her. BTK Killer
What does this have to do with porn? People can have sexual fantasies regardless of their porn viewing habits.
"My experience with pornography ... is once you become addicted to it, (and I look at this as a kind of addiction like other kinds of addiction), I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more graphic kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep craving something that is harder, something which gives you a greater sense of excitement. Until you reach a point where the pornography only goes so far, you reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if maybe actually doing it would give you that which is beyond just reading or looking at it."
Ted Bundy
But then, wouldn't people eventually "cure" themselves of the need for porn because nothing they look at would be satisfying anymore? Also, if that is true wouldn't the market for the "hard" stuff be much larger? Furthermore, if porn is the cause for sexual crimes then why are non-porn viewers so often involved in them? i.e. priests.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 3:55 PM | | Tal has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 19 of 304 (220132)
06-27-2005 4:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Tal
06-27-2005 4:17 PM
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Re: Here we go again.
Wasn't Ted Bundy crazy? We have all blamed our actions on this or that influence, often without justification. Doesn't that render Bundy's self-assessment meaningless? At any rate, what does a single anectdote have to do with the issue?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 4:17 PM | | Tal has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by lfen, posted 06-28-2005 12:38 AM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6487 days) Posts: 534 Joined: 09-02-2004
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Message 20 of 304 (220133)
06-27-2005 4:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Tal
06-27-2005 3:55 PM
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Ted Bundy
When Ted Bundy was arrested, there was no pornography in his home. There were quite a few brochures for cheerleader camps attended by middle- and high-school girls. It was only much later, well after his conviction in Florida for the murder of a young girl (who's name and age escape me) and his rabid attack of the occupants of a sorority house, that pornography entered his story during a series of death row interviews. The writer doing the interviews and most observers at the time believed his claims were sympathy seeking ploys, attempts to shift blame away from him. At the same time, he found God and offerred to tell where several of his victims were buried only if his death sentence were commuted. At least the Bundy reference had some relation to pornography, even if it was a spurious one. The reference concerning the BTK killer does not refer to pornography in any way. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Perhaps you aren't trotting out the old, discredited idea that pornography incites violence. It could be, from what you wrote, that you are saying we should try and protect our children from serial killers. That I agree with.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 3:55 PM | | Tal has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 92 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 8:17 AM | | mikehager has not replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4148 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 21 of 304 (220136)
06-27-2005 4:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Tal
06-27-2005 4:17 PM
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Re: Here we go again.
quote:
A 74-year-old man who shot and wounded his granddaughter barricaded himself in a house Wednesday night, then died when he turned the gun on himself. Hans Bechold shot Nicole Riley, 14, about 7:45 p.m. in the 9300 block of Southwest 54th Street, said Sheriff's Office spokesman Hugh Graf. Graf said the two were home alone, and the girl was on the phone with her boyfriend when Bechold shot her. When Riley ran outside screaming, a neighbor came to help her, and Bechold shot the girl again at close range, Graf said. Bechold continued to fire shots, and the girl and the neighbor fled, Graf said.
How is this family's own experience not a demonstration of the negative effects of guns made by adults for adults? So you want to ban guns right? Because clearly following your logic the gun was responsible for that man's actions. I always pictured you as someone who thought that a man was responsible for his own actions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 4:17 PM | | Tal has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 497 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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quote:
Furthermore, if porn is the cause for sexual crimes then why are non-porn viewers so often involved in them? i.e. priests.
—Rand
Besides, sex crimes have been around for thousands of years before porn came into existence, speaking as someone who is not a big fan of the porn industry. What people *ahem Faith* needs to understand is that in order to have true freedom of speech and expression everyone must be protected not just the people that agree with your ideology. I absolutely don't like christianity and a lot of christians out there. Do you see me lobbying for a ban or persecution of christians? Hell, no.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 06-27-2005 4:17 PM | | Rand Al'Thor has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 27 by jar, posted 06-27-2005 4:41 PM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 23 of 304 (220139)
06-27-2005 4:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by robinrohan
06-27-2005 3:15 PM
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the theme of much heterosexual pornography is the degradation of women, which I think very unhealthy, and I wouldn't mind if there was less of it. 1) So if you don't like a certain type of speech it should be allowed to be extorted out of existence because it cannot be done directly through legal channels? (Remember this has nothing to do with content so I'm not sure what you are arguing except that extortion is okay) 2) This legislation is more likely tp PROMOTE degradational porn. Corporate porn is what set the stereotypes. Almost all of the businesses attempting to reject that paradigm, as well as almost all women operated and run businesses are independents who will really take a hit on this.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by robinrohan, posted 06-27-2005 3:15 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 24 of 304 (220140)
06-27-2005 4:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Tal
06-27-2005 4:14 PM
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quote:
It is substantiated.
Great! I am looking forward to seeing you substantiate these claims. Oh, wait. But substantiate I am thinking that you mean good statistical data that have withstood scrutiny in the peer-reviewed literature, right? Or by substantiate do you really mean that you can dig up this or that anectdotal evidence, as well as a few quotes from a self-professed "expert"?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 4:14 PM | | Tal has not replied |
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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6487 days) Posts: 534 Joined: 09-02-2004
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Message 25 of 304 (220143)
06-27-2005 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Tal
06-27-2005 4:17 PM
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Re: Here we go again.
How is Ted Bundy's own statement not a demonstration of the negative effects of pornography made by adults for adults? Three reasons. 1. Bundy's claims are highly suspect. (See my post #20 in this thread) 2. Bundy was clearly a violently disturbed individual. We have no way of knowing if an obsession with Porn (if such an obsession existed) was causative or a symptom. 3. Even if he had a porn obsession and it were causative, he is one example and a generalization cannot be drawn from it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 4:17 PM | | Tal has not replied |
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dsv
Member (Idle past 4744 days) Posts: 220 From: Secret Underground Hideout Joined: 08-17-2004
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Message 26 of 304 (220144)
06-27-2005 4:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
06-27-2005 3:20 PM
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Wish the Founders would come back and tell you guys a thing or two. I suppose they could tell us about their war stories with prostitutes.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Faith, posted 06-27-2005 3:20 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Speech with which you agree ...
does not need protecting.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 28 of 304 (220146)
06-27-2005 4:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
06-27-2005 3:20 PM
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We're awash in these since the sixties. Wish the Founders would come back and tell you guys a thing or two. The ones that were libertines and partook of prostitutes, or the ones that had sex with underage slaves of different races? We've been awash in erotica (both pictorial and written) since before the 1760's. The founding fathers did tell us a thing or two, the first was that we have a freedom of speech that should not be abridged and not to have religious values enforced on others. I'm sad to see you come here and show your utter hypocrisy after demanding people not oppress others of different beliefs in the other thread.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Faith, posted 06-27-2005 3:20 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 29 of 304 (220147)
06-27-2005 4:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by CK
06-27-2005 4:26 PM
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Re: Here we go again.
quote:
I always pictured you as someone who thought that a man was responsible for his own actions.
Maybe Tal is a Christian. I've noticed by their concern over providing the "correct environment" in which to raise kids that Christians don't believe in free-will.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by CK, posted 06-27-2005 4:26 PM | | CK has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 30 of 304 (220148)
06-27-2005 4:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Tal
06-27-2005 3:55 PM
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What do we need to protect our kids from? Ignorance such as yours Tal. So you freely admit you recognize this as having nothing to do with children but a backdoor way to eat away at the first amendment, and you agree? Remember, enemies foreign and domestic. If you are for undermining the 1st amendment then you are indeed the traitor I have suspected.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 3:55 PM | | Tal has not replied |
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