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Author Topic:   God and Good Parenting
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 61 (81681)
01-30-2004 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by apostolos
01-30-2004 10:42 AM


From the text of Genesis it is clear to see that Adam and Eve were fully capable of knowing that the choice to eat the fruit was both wrong and harmful.
By what textual evidence do you support this conclusion? It's hardly obvious to me.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 61 (94259)
03-23-2004 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
01-11-2004 10:43 PM


Wrong-O, actually Adam and Eve are throught to of been extremely intelligent, by definition. Try remembering thousands of animal's names after naming them.

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by crashfrog, posted 03-24-2004 2:58 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 49 by DC85, posted 03-27-2004 3:26 PM joshua221 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 48 of 61 (94346)
03-24-2004 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by joshua221
03-23-2004 8:32 PM


Wrong-O, actually Adam and Eve are throught to of been extremely intelligent, by definition.
Babies can be extremely intelligent. That doesn't make them any more able to make moral decisions for themselves.
Haven't you ever heard the term "idiot savant"? Paul Erdos couldn't even tie his shoes. (not that I'm referring to him as an idiot savant.)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by joshua221, posted 03-27-2004 8:36 PM crashfrog has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 49 of 61 (95144)
03-27-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by joshua221
03-23-2004 8:32 PM


Chimps , Parrots and Dolphins are very smart animals
Chimps = Intelligence of 4-5 year old child
Dolphins = about the same as chimp
Parrots = Intelligence of a 6-7 year old child
Does that Mean they should act like they are a child of that age? NO! they lack the thought process Homo Sapiens have Just like Adam and Eve didn't have knowledge of Good and Evil.
I have known Smart People that had no Common sense at all

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 61 (95212)
03-27-2004 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
01-10-2004 3:09 PM


Loaded Trees of Knowledge
Chiroptera writes:
I think Crashfrog may be talking about leaving a loaded Tree of Knowledge in the children's playroom.
If we are going to speculate on the status quo at the time of this event, assuming for the sake of argument that the event was real, we also need to know what type of creatures the pre fall Adam and Eve were. They were certainly more than kids.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 61 (95215)
03-27-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by crashfrog
03-24-2004 2:58 AM


Eve's reasoning with the serpent is evidence enough to refute your argument.

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by crashfrog, posted 03-24-2004 2:58 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 03-27-2004 8:42 PM joshua221 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 61 (95216)
03-27-2004 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by DC85
03-27-2004 3:26 PM


quote:
I have known Smart People that had no Common sense at all
Is this part of your argument?
The intelligence of animals has little to do with anything that I stated.
Read my reply to crashfrog.

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by DC85, posted 03-27-2004 3:26 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 53 of 61 (95218)
03-27-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by joshua221
03-27-2004 8:36 PM


Eve's reasoning with the serpent is evidence enough to refute your argument.
You're talking about this?
quote:
And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Clarence Darrow for the defense, she ain't. That's not exactly the world's most sophisticated reasoning, here. In fact it's a childlike parroting what she heard second-hand from Adam.
I don't understand how you feel the above exchange refutes my argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by joshua221, posted 03-27-2004 8:36 PM joshua221 has replied

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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 54 of 61 (95234)
03-27-2004 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by joshua221
03-27-2004 8:39 PM


Is this part of your argument?
Why not?
The intelligence of animals has little to do with anything that I stated
It doesn't? Tell me do you view Humans as better then other creatures on this Planet? Why are Humans above the rest of Nature?
Anyway what I was saying is that Intelegennce has very little or nothing to do with what they are saying.
The Bible CLEARLY says they lacked that ability Unless you have a new Bible I have never seen....
I was using animals to say even though they are as smart a humans they lack our thinking process. So intelegence has nothing to do with this.
[This message has been edited by DC85, 03-27-2004]

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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 55 of 61 (95240)
03-27-2004 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
03-27-2004 8:34 PM


Re: Loaded Trees of Knowledge
If we are going to speculate on the status quo at the time of this event, assuming for the sake of argument that the event was real, we also need to know what type of creatures the pre fall Adam and Eve were. They were certainly more than kids.
yes they are full grown adults who cannot tell the difference between Good and Evil Which is worse then a child because Adam and Eve lacked the ability to learn without the tree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 03-27-2004 8:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 61 (95349)
03-28-2004 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by DC85
03-27-2004 9:46 PM


Mental status of Adam and Eve pre fall
If we are to correctly analyze this story, we must assume that it is true as recorded in the Bible. One thing we cannot do, however, is to speculate on how Adam and Eve felt before the Fall. The reason is because the way that all humans now feel is "post fall". We cannot imagine having no awareness of evil. It is unlike a child or an adult in the present, both of whom innately are aware of the reality of good and evil. Babies,even! They are not always little innocents!
Adam and eve, by contrast, cannot be understood because we do not know what it feels like to have no innate awareness such as they had.
innate \i-nat\ adj 1 : existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native 2 : inherent, intrinsic
1instinct \in-stinkt\ n 1 : a natural aptitude 2 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason; also : behavior originating below the conscious level instinctive \in-stink-tiv\ adj instinctively adv
Note def#2 of instinct. After the Fall, humans would inherit a totally different nature than pre fall humans would have.
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-28-2004]

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 61 (95377)
03-28-2004 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by crashfrog
03-27-2004 8:42 PM


Death= Bad, Eating of Tree= Bad.

The earth is flat.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 61 (95378)
03-28-2004 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by DC85
03-27-2004 9:37 PM


quote:
Why not?
The whole argument of "I know smart people without CS" is without logic and evidence.
quote:
It doesn't? Tell me do you view Humans as better then other creatures on this Planet? Why are Humans above the rest of Nature?
Anyway what I was saying is that Intelegennce has very little or nothing to do with what they are saying.
The Bible CLEARLY says they lacked that ability Unless you have a new Bible I have never seen....
I was using animals to say even though they are as smart a humans they lack our thinking process. So intelegence has nothing to do with this.
I believe in the Bible BTW.
Where in the Bible does it say Adam and Eve lacked a certain "thinking process"?
Humans are obviously above the rest of the Earth.
Why should I regard that statement as evidence? Let crash take over.
[This message has been edited by prophex, 03-28-2004]

The earth is flat.

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 Message 54 by DC85, posted 03-27-2004 9:37 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by sidelined, posted 03-28-2004 1:15 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 60 by DC85, posted 03-28-2004 3:33 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 59 of 61 (95384)
03-28-2004 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by joshua221
03-28-2004 12:59 PM


prophex
Humans are obviously above the rest of the Earth.
This is an interesting statement variations of which appear from time to time in the forum."Humans are obviously" [insert your own ending].
Yet I never have been able to understand why these things are obvious since there is no follow up offered for the most part.
Would you care to state the obvious for us prophex? Or do you imply that our position is simply a result of being hand picked [chosen if you will] by God?

'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by joshua221, posted 03-28-2004 12:59 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 60 of 61 (95407)
03-28-2004 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by joshua221
03-28-2004 12:59 PM


Where in the Bible does it say Adam and Eve lacked a certain "thinking process"?
Are you able to make a decsion between right and wrong? Yes? well the Bible says CLEARLY they were unable to do this..... Crash already pointed the spots to you...
Humans are obviously above the rest of the Earth.
How do you come to this Idea? Its not that obvious to me... Alittle Abstract thought hardly makes us great and above everything else....
A cheetah can run 60 mph... a bird can fly... so what?

This message is a reply to:
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