The Whole Jesus Thing

In support of his previous: "In fact, Moses and virtually all Israeli royals, were classed as gods." Not even close. You're understanding of Psalm 82:6 is particularly curious. You might wish to read it again, since it has absolutely nothing to do with "Moses and ... Israeli royals" (whatever those might be).[This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 12-12-2003]

If we all lived a life like Jesus then where would the next generation come from?Brian.

Abshalom,I think, perhaps, I might like to try to provide some information on this topic like that which you had asked for. I am often bothered by the straw man arguments I see presented on this site which are basically a take on a passage of scripture that is somehow erroneous.Two things first (should you be interested):
I am not at all suggesting that I am somehow superior or that my knowledge of the Bible is unequalled or any other such worthless garbage.ButI have studied (am studying) to some extent and would presenting information from the position of scripture and not from a scientific viewpoint necessarily. I am not saying I reject science, just that I really don't have much of an education in that field. And since this forum seems to be dependent on discussions fueled by that kind of background, I don't know that I can help at all. I will agree to following an order of logical presentation.Well, I don't know if my take on things will help reach the end you are stretching for but nonetheless, there it is. Let me know.Russ

These passages are merely the-tip-of-the-iceberg of evidence that Hebrew use of the word 'god' was much broader than ours. I have to wonder whether you have gone beneath the surface and considered the implications of these passages.

quote:

---

Ex. 7:1 - And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god [elohim] to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

​

Ps. 82:1 - God [elohim] ... judgeth among the gods [elohim].
Ps. 82:6 - I have said, Ye are gods [elohim]; ... children of the most High.

---

Jesus used the quote from Psalms to justify calling himself the Son of God.

quote:

---

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, ... Say ye ... Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

---

In other words Jesus says, he is making a lesser claim. Please note that Adam was also called "the son of God." Luke 3:38Why do I say, "Israeli royals were classed as gods"?
That one is less direct but nonetheless evident in scripture.

• Most Israeli kings incorporated a shortened form of the name of their God (YHWH) within their own name, much as did the kings of other nations with the names of their God.
• Of at least one king (Solomon) it is plainly stated that he is a son of God. 1 Chronicles 22:10
• Probably in reference to David, or Solomon, the psalmist writes:

  quote:

  ---

  The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

  ---

  The Living Bible reads: This is your Coronation Day.
• An alternative reading of Ps. 82:7, which in the KJV reads, "...ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." is as follows:

  quote:

  ---

  ...ye shall fall as one man, O princes

  ---

  See footnote 'g', Revised Standard Version.
• Elohim is also translated 'judges,' and 'angels,' both of which may be shown to be functionaries of the crown.

So far we are merely looking at Hebrew applications of the word 'elohim' which we translate as: 'god.' The occasional capitolization (God) or pluralization (gods) is done at the discretion of the translator; presumably based upon context and the translator's impression regarding which 'god' is being discussed.It follows, of course, that a 'son of god' is himself a 'god.'About 'the LORD' (AKA - YHWH, Yahweh, or Jehovah):
The Hebrews took YHWH to be their unique national God. He is often called, "the God of Israel" or "God of the Hebrews," and frequently he is called, "the LORD God," or "God of Hosts [armies]" Interestingly, he is never called, "the God of everyone." It is imagined, predicted, that he will become the God of everyone; just as he became the God of Israel: an event accomplished through violence.His behaviour, and his rhetoric are characteristically Autocratic. He often calls himself a King, and on more than one occasion he is called a 'man.' All this is consistent with a political system wherein God-kings, or Priest-kings, rule in the place of God. Ancient Hebrews may have accepted this guy's claim to godhood but I do not.'Nuff said?db

Dr. Bill:This is not intended as a refutation of your post just above. I think you make a lot of sense. But let me offer this more simple take:Exodus 7, v.1: (God) said to Moses: "See, I will make you as a god for Pharoah, and Aaron you brother will be your prophet."An alternative translation is "I will make you as an oracle for Pharoah ..." See also Exodus 4, v. 16: "He (Aaron) shall speak for you to the people (Hebrews), he shall be for you a mouth (spokesman) and you shall be for him a god (alternatively, "oracle").Backing up to verse 10, it appears that Moses was "not a man of words" and was "heavy of mouth and heavy of tongue" indicating maybe a speech impediment that he was using as an excuse to skirt the task of confronting the Pharoah.To reinforce Moses confidence, God calls him an "oracle" and points out that brother Aaron can act as his spokesperson or "prophet" (like the ringleader, carnival barker or M.C. of the Moses and Bros. Travelling Medicine Show) until such time as Moses worked his snake magic and subsequent marvelous acts, thereby "appearing as if a god to the pharoah."

That is all very interesting but as you say, is an alternative interpretation.My point, of course, is that the word 'elohim' is in play here; the same word which, in the first chapter of Genesis, is descriptive of the force(s) which created the universe.We can put all the spin we like on it, but the fact remains that the word 'elohim' is expected to make sense in all these contexts. The fact that there are so many applications of 'elohim' should give us pause in our quest to identify 'God.'Bottom line: There is, in biblical Hebrew, no unique term specifically reserved for what moderns perceive to be God-the creator of the universe.db[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 12-12-2003]

OK, a former christian will give it a go. Remember the trinity? The early church fathers came up with this idea to help solve a number of problems. If Jesus was a seperate person within the one godhead, then christians can still worship one god while worshipping Jesus also. The Father(God) can send the Son(who is also God) to die for our sins, and as I have posted before, this to me is nothing more than child-sacrifice. Why is it the ultimate gift as you say? Well, if Jesus is God,as the argument goes, then sin which can't be atoned for by human effort(according to protestant christian theology), can be atoned by the death of an eternal person. This all assumes the idea that sin needs to be atoned for anyway. It also assumes that God demands justice for everything he consideres sinful. Christians use a # of Bible verses to back up the idea that we humans are sinful in the sight of God, and therefor we need salvation. One verse that I used to try to convince others that God demands justice for sin was, Ephesians 2:8; "For the wages(payment) of sin is death(our spiritual death;eternity in hell), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus...". So, as the religion preaches, if one believes that Jesus died for their sins, then one gets to go to heaven. Christians call this the 'ultimate gift' because Jesus death on the cross is believed to be the ultimate act of love from God. Hope this helped.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 01-03-2004]

Question 1:How could God kill himself?.
Answer:
Have you seen the "Universal Soldier" film?
In it there is a computer that controls many diferent devices in the building of a company.Suddenly the computer gets crazy and commands a troop of cyborgs created by the company .But at an instant he transfers his information to a chip(cant remember if this was the method)that was putted in a cyborgs brain(a black guy).
He then BECAMES the cyborg himself and has a limited action.
This is NEAR what happens to Jesus(with some differences).
Unlike the computer God is good.God created a perfect body inside Marys womb from nothing.Then all of his spiritual essence went to that body.
Later it was the body (Gods material temple) that was destroyed and God repaired it(the ressurrection).
Question 2:Concerning Jesus atonishment.
Answer:Sin is like a virus.If you were infected by it you had to take a painful vacination.
Now suppose that there is not an antidote and that the virus is lethal.If someone loves you much he can touch you until the virus passes from you to him and die in your place.The salary of Sin is death.In the spiritual realm God take your sin and in the material the consequent punishment(death of Jesus).
Question 3:Why have we to believe it to receive salvation?
Answer:Because by faith we "actualizes" the salvation event to us in the spiritual realm.
Remember the story of the girl with a blood flux?
We need to put our sins on the cross .
Jesus gave us salvation but we have to receive it.
When we gave something to someone that person can accept or refuse it.
Its simple.

Ummmm... ya...

In so many words, you are correct with your theology, ASSUMING of course that God is the sort of god your talking about, & that sin is something that really exists, and that this God doesn't like sin, and that Adam&Eve really existed, and that their "original sin" was genetically transfered to all their decendants, and that God would commit child-sacrifice on His son, and that death is the payment for sin, and that only the Son could pay it, and that faith in the Son saves us, and that the Bible is reliable with regard to salvation or anything else. Have I left out anything? Alot of ASSUMPTIONS isn't it? But if it makes you feel secure, that's your business. Heck, that's what religion is all about.

opostolos,I'd be interested in watching you explain the "good news" here, and responding in a helpful way, to stimulate discussion. The question, indeed, could be rhetorical, but without understanding any and everyone is lost, according to what Yeshua said about the seed that is sown, that is stolen by "birds." So, hang it out there!Stephen

That is the most important and the central message of the bible.Believe it or not it is important to memorize it for the rest of your life.(Think about it and research it).When you research enough
you will see the Truth.Then you have to make a decision(receive Jesus or not).One of the many books you can read is Lee Strobels "In defense of Christ".The most important chapter is the last(which talks about the decision for Christ).The entire book is about evidences concerning Christ.It is selled in a local church.

From Post #26, note, " ... according to what Yeshua said about the seed that is sown, that is stolen by "birds." So, hang it out there!" Stephen ben Yeshua.Oy vey, y'all better get ready for a whopper!Lemme guess. The birds stole the seeds of faith that were sown by the students of Rabbi Yeshua. Those seeds now souring in the gullets of birds cannot sprout, grow to fruition, and reseed new grains of truth. [an aside: If the birds only ate 10%, can we write the loss off to tything?]So, who's to blame for this obvious evil? Are those pesty little birds actually incarnated demon spirits? Naw, they're just evolved descendants of dinosaurs of unearthly origins. Damned evolution!

Newborn,Do you mean "The Case for Christ" by Strobel?What does a poorly researched, feel good, preach to the choir, apologetic like this have to do with evidence?

---

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Newborn,
Doctorbill has some good points that I think should be addressed here. So, please explain why you think Jesus was a deity and not a human like you or I? Because this whole 'human being the incarnate of the God' or 'Son of God' was not isolated to the Israelites. It might seem off topic, but I think the clarification is necessary before all the symbolic explanations commence. This question goes out to Apostolos and Stephen ben Yeshua (since you want to be supportive) as well.