The power of prayers vs. The Divine plan

To Ringokid:Thank you for your post.Reply to your post: Is this an open admission that you haven't tried hard enough? Well, not just omniscience, though that's an intergral part of the argument. Try reading the opening post. So, kind of like forcing Himself to forget what he previously knew about the future to surprise Himself? That would breach the consistency assumption of God. No I don't think He can do that - at least not the Christian God as described in the Christian bible.One of the key premise of Christianity is that God is unchanging. To forget certain knowledge would compromise His consistency (unchanging-ness) as well as eliminating omniscience altogether.If you want to do away with consistency, then there is no reason why God cannot change anything else (the covenant, the promises with Jews, the prophecies, His requirements for entrance into Heaven, etc.).Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

It's not that didn't try hard enough I just didn't try at all but I did go back and read the first post and to my surprise found I had already expressed some views...so anyway, if God is omniscient and omnipotent then he can do pretty much anything and everything including change......the premise of an unchanging God I suggest is yours, to make the assumtion of pre deteterminism fit the notion that we don't have any choice over our actions. So perhaps you could quote the passage of scripture that relates to a christian GOD that is incapable of change.A God that is incapable of change hardly constitutes omniscience or omnipotence though don't you think ???

In psychology class in high school, many years ago, we learned about the phenomenon that humans call "suspension of disbelief". This is what allows us to watch Gilligans Island reruns over and over again and pretend like we don't know the ending. We suspend our awareness so that we may enjoy the rerun. Is this what you think that God does, perhaps in a more sophisticated manner?

yeah, I suppose...I was thinking more of God writing the script and producing the movie but allowing the actors to improvise and direct their own scenes, so as not to spoil the ending for himselfI think his first movie starring the angels was fully scripted, produced and directed in very dictatorial manner so he knew the final outcome including the prima donna choices made by his star, Lucifer, who desperately wanted to improvise and thought he could do a better job of directing himself......that movie kinda failed at the box office hence we don't really know much about itHowever Lucifer was given a part to play in the sequel and in a post production role is currently writing the soundtrak and working the lights...

Well, he is disguised as an angel of light, so why not be the light man?

To RingoKid:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: ...unless He specifically states that He doesn't. *sigh*You don't even know one of the key premise in Christianity? Are you a Christian? And also, next time you display doubt on anything I have asserted as legitimate, please take the time to run a simple google search prior to accusing me of MSU.A 20 seconds search on the net later, and I was able to identify the quotes plus arguments for the Consistency Assumption from Christian sites:http://members.nuvox.net/~on.roz/God/what/unchanging.htmlGOD UNCHANGINGThe Spurgeon Library | Page not foundAre you going to argue that I made those sites up, or would you be inclined to argue against the word of the Bible? Where's the logic in that? I demand that you explain this claim.Many would argue that any changes from perfection would inevitably lead to imperfection, and I am also inclined to think that way. If God is perfect (are you going to accuse me of making this assumption up now?) then any changes on His character and attribute must surely make him imperfect.Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Where is this quote that says God is INCAPABLE of change...I'm not going to change my opinion but that doesn't mean I am incapable of changing it. I just exercise my free will and choose not to.If I were perfect, omnipotent and omniscient then I could simply choose not to be as well it would depend on how i felt at any given timeNow don't make any more demands on my time or my choice to respond to you it shows a certain neediness to have your opinions validated which I find rather unattractiveAs to whether I am a christian perhaps this might explain it. You seem to be a lost soul outside of your comfortable little box so you like to put everything in nice little boxes and keep them confined so if it suits you then I am a christian if it suits me than i am also muslim and buddhist and jewish...etcnothing is perfect
in the space where nothing exists
will one find perfection
the perfect nothingseek

To RingoKid:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: How can you get more hardcore than "For I am the Lord, I change not..." (Malachi 3:6)?And how does this compromise my point? Suppose that God can change, but have explicitly asserted that He doesn't. (You're not going to argue that God lies now, are you?) So God will not make Himself un-omniscience because to do so would be changing. In the scenario I have described, it doesn't even matter if God can change as long as he doesn't. (Afterall, when God says something doesn't happen, it can't happen.)Happy now? Great. God chose not to be perfect. So you're claiming that at some point in time in the past, present or future, God was imperfect?Don't ask me. Ask Christians what they think.Personally, I think you have no idea what you're on about. Thank God you're not replying anymore as it would be a waste of my time to read through your waste of time. (Pun intended) I asked if you are Christian because you seem to know nothing about the Christian God. If you are not Christian, I would be more forgiving and consider you involuntarily ignorant. If you are Christian, I was considering bringing out the big guns. Is this a teen angst-induced, psuedo-deep, quasi-intelligent poem/waste-of-time?Edited to add: We all need to have our opinions validated - that's how learning and innovation take place. You're just irritated because you got your misguided opinion invalidated.Have a nice day.This message has been edited by Sleeping Dragon, 08-24-2004 09:20 AM

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

I change not yet I am not incapable of change...which part of that don't you get ???...another thing you don't seem to want to get, is that the christian God is the muslim God is the jewish God is God the one and only creator so a true christian is a true muslim is a true jew is a true believer in the one creator and acts accordingly. Your compartmentalising of each one's beliefs to suit your naive purposes speaks volumes of your ignorance .the poem is a test and you failed and no I don't need my opinions validated as i have true knowledge of my beliefs , talents and am secure in my relationship with Godhave a nice life not some time wasting internet substitute and don't forget to breathe

To RingoKid:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: I got every single bit of that. It is you who failed to recognise my point (and I have good reasons to think that you haven't even read my post).If you tell me that "you change not", it would be an admission that you do not and will not change. It doesn't matter whether you can change - even if you can, you won't.If God does not lie, then when He claims that He "does not change", He really is saying that He is consistent (no change will occur to his attributes).Another interesting point with God is that God is omniscience - when He says something (x) does not and will not happen, and assuming He is not lying to you, that event (x) cannot occur.Do you comprehend that? Have you internalised that particular piece of information? I am only repeating what I said in my last post so I have every reason to believe that you have not read it.Hint: read posts. Can you kindly quote what I said before you shoot off your comments? Which part of which post of mine are you referring to? Errrrrr.....how many people will pass a test like this? Should I now make up some maggoty junk that sprouted off the top of my head during a head-splitting hangover and test your intellectual capacity with it? What can I say but: "I am happy to disappoint you."? Ever looked up the word "arrogant"? This comment of yours is a textbook definition. Is this another hopeless attempt at humour? *sigh* No, I won't dignify this with a response.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

I think you need to ask God yourself or at least get God up in this forum so he can quote himself and have the right of reply cos i don't think any of us are capable of interpreting the mind of god, his nature or his word and doing it proper justice. As for me, I've got better things to do......and you're right, not many people pass my testhave a nice life and don't forget to breathe otherwise maybe I'll see you in heaven one day, or notBTW there are numerous instances of God changing his mind in the OT, deciding we are not worthy of free will and starting over again.

To RingoKid:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: I never even attempted to interpret the mind of the Christian God, I merely took the Bible's text literally and produced a logical conclusion. I'm sorry if you don't like the conclusion I've drawn, but that in no way compromises its validity. Hahahahahaha...well at least you're honest about this one thing. These are all shining examples of the inherent contradictions within the bible that Christian literalists and fundamentalists deliberately avoid contemplating.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

So what will it be? The Yamato or the Iowa?
It has always been my opinion that individual beliefs are sacred and untouchable, even if they make no sense. The man who can quantify and articulate everything without error does not necessarily win an argument or a discussion on theology. People have many reasons for believing as they do, and some are not swayed. Take a man who claims to have had an encounter with a U.F.O. If he is convinced that the event happened, and has memory recall that alludes to the same, no amount of logic will sway his belief. We, in fact, cannot prove that the event never happened!

To Phatboy:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post:You're getting a tad off topic here...but I'll humour you all the same. Oh, I think the .44 Reason will do nicely here. I'm not trying to disprove faith - which, by its unfalsifiable characteristic, is technically impossible. I have absolutely no problem with individuals who believe for the sake of believing - my only beef is with those who broadcast and enforce their flawed beliefs onto others. We're not even talking about something that makes no sense - which could come about due to an insufficient understanding of the ideas. We're talking about an inherent logical contradiction. Consider the following dialogue:A: Hey! I just saw a UFO! And then aliens came out of it and talked to me!
B: Wow! So which part of the sky did you see it?
A: It's not in the sky! It's on the ground.
B: OK. And what did the aliens tell you?
A: They said: "This is a UFO. It is a pudding. It cannot fly."
B: Errrr....you do know that UFO means "Unidenfied Flying Object", right? So if we know what it is, and it cannot fly, then how can it be a UFO?
A: I don't know, but I have faith in what the aliens told me. I believe them. They are telling the truth!
B: ........This is a logical contradiction.Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Do you mean anything connected with Christian Belief? If so, please explain...