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Author Topic:   God Definitely Exist!
iftikhar
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 12 (86096)
02-13-2004 12:35 PM


Hello There!
well dear peeps!
simple n old concept.
Look around things are not created by themselves.
they are carved by the Master.
The biggest Creator ever.God
see u
Peace

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-14-2004 5:31 AM iftikhar has not replied
 Message 4 by DC85, posted 02-14-2004 2:18 PM iftikhar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 12 (86237)
02-14-2004 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iftikhar
02-13-2004 12:35 PM


How we think about God
That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular. Abraham Lincoln
Honest Abe! Good show!
When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow.Anais Nin
Well...true enough! I never base my belief on a mere flip of a coin.
The moral and religious system which Jesus Christ transmitted to us is the best the world has ever seen, or can see. Ben Franklin
Well, Ben trusted lightning also! He also was quoted as saying
Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
A warning about religious zeal comes from Blaise Pascal, who once said
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
Don Hirschberg wittily said that
Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color
yet the great lawyer Clarence Darrow succinctly stated his heart:
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means. Scopes trial, Dayton, Tennessee, July 13, 1925

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iftikhar, posted 02-13-2004 12:35 PM iftikhar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Abshalom, posted 02-14-2004 2:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 11 by Cthulhu, posted 02-15-2004 8:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 12 (86294)
02-14-2004 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
02-14-2004 5:31 AM


Re: How we think about God
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.
"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814.
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814.
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles." John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815.
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816.
"When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it." John Adams, from Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion.
"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-14-2004 5:31 AM Phat has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 4 of 12 (86295)
02-14-2004 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iftikhar
02-13-2004 12:35 PM


Look around things are not created by themselves.
they are carved by the Master.
The biggest Creator ever.God
Think about it this way.... If the Universe has always been here in some form or another doesn't that remove the need for a god of any kind? You may say things can't pop out of nowhere.... but a god also defies that logic
[This message has been edited by DC85, 02-14-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iftikhar, posted 02-13-2004 12:35 PM iftikhar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 02-14-2004 4:20 PM DC85 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 12 (86310)
02-14-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by DC85
02-14-2004 2:18 PM


Creator or Creation?
DC85 writes:
You may say things can't pop out of nowhere.... but a god also defies that logic
Unless of course a Creator who is by definition Omnipotant is the very source of definition...thus trumping the logic by redefining the definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by DC85, posted 02-14-2004 2:18 PM DC85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by dextar, posted 02-15-2004 2:01 AM Phat has replied

  
dextar
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 12 (86363)
02-15-2004 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
02-14-2004 4:20 PM


Re: Creator or Creation?
Of course an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent god could create everything. Although the problem with this is that we have created these words, and we can't achieve ANY of those words definition. So how can you say you have faith in a god? Its like saying you can comprehend infinity, or nothing.
Cheers.
(I'm fairly new here so I am not specifically responding to pboy, but am making a general statement.)
[This message has been edited by dextar, 02-15-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 02-14-2004 4:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-15-2004 7:30 AM dextar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 12 (86400)
02-15-2004 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by dextar
02-15-2004 2:01 AM


Re: Creator or Creation?
dextar writes:
the problem with this is that we have created these words
Let me ask you to ponder this, dextar. If God is rational, then God would not arbitrarily assign random value to definition...in other words, He could declare that Red is Blue and Lo and Behold, all that once was red became blue! Let us assume, however, that God and humans agree on red. It is just that God understands red better than we do. God understands logic better than we do,. God understands__________better than we do. This is my first point. God has a superior understanding.
dextar writes:
Its like saying you can comprehend infinity, or nothing.
I can comprehend neither "infinity" or the concept of "nothing". I can only comprehend God through His Son, Jesus Christ.
People can pray to nature or to the clouds because of the vastness...the aw....the largesse of a world bigger than them. Advantage: Concept of a large God. Disadvantage: Abstract prayer
People can also pray to statues whom they believe represent God. Advantage: Concrete
Disadvantage: idol. Block of stone. Limits God.
The Orthodox had the concept of Icons. An Icon is not an idol. An icon is a window to heaven. Thus, a concrete symbol and yet a view of the infinite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by dextar, posted 02-15-2004 2:01 AM dextar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Abshalom, posted 02-15-2004 9:59 AM Phat has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 12 (86406)
02-15-2004 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
02-15-2004 7:30 AM


Icon vs Idol
In Message #7, Phatboy offers these thoughts:
"People can also pray to statues whom they believe represent God. Advantage: Concrete
Disadvantage: idol. Block of stone. Limits God."
and
"The Orthodox had the concept of Icons. An Icon is not an idol. An icon is a window to heaven. Thus, a concrete symbol and yet a view of the infinite."
WHOA, Buck!
Othodox who? Certainly not Othodox Jews! Are you talking about Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, or just othodox idolators generally?
Since the last couple of messages are discussing "definitions" generally, may I offfer the following definitions from Websters Dictionary:
ICON:
1 : a usually pictorial representation : IMAGE
2 [Late Greek eikOn, from Greek] : a conventional religious image typically painted on a small wooden panel and used in the devotions of Eastern Christians
3 : an object of uncritical devotion : IDOL
IDOL:
1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a : a likeness of something
So, now again, what is the "advantage" of worshipping an "ICON" versus worshipping an "IDOL", Phatboy? Are you saying that somewhere along the line someone conveniently authorized a misrepresented or misinterpretted meaning of icon so that worshipping a painting, picture, or plaster statue in one religious setting is not the same idolatry as worshipping a carved image, stone statue, or totum pole in a different context?
Do I smell horse hockey here?
[And not to diverge into another topic altogether, but is that what all this killing in the name of God has been about?]
Bottom Line: Icons are idols, and icon worship is idolatry.
Apparently, even after all this time and opportunity for understanding, the pagan heart prevails.
Peace in iconoclasm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-15-2004 7:30 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 02-15-2004 10:39 AM Abshalom has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 12 (86415)
02-15-2004 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Abshalom
02-15-2004 9:59 AM


Re: Icon vs Idol
Abshalom! This is indeed a very profound topic for discussion, and it carries over into many issues beliefs and disagreements among Judaism and Christianity. For the purpose of my reply, let us focus on the definition of the word, Icon as you have presented it.My little websters dictionary on the computer defines icon thusly:
icon \"-'kn\ n 1 : image; esp : a religious image painted on a wood panel 2 : a small picture on a computer display that suggests the purpose of an available function
Whereas the definition which you gave has an icon defined as this:
ICON:1 : a usually pictorial representation : IMAGE2 [Late Greek eikOn, from Greek] : a conventional religious image typically painted on a small wooden panel and used in the devotions of Eastern Christians3 : an object of uncritical devotion : IDOL
So we have defined the terms. For the purposes of the defense of Christianity, I will say that I am refering to the icons in either definition #1 or definition#2. I am not suggesting idolatry. Allow me to share some scriptures.We may not agree on all points and yet I sense a common understanding in a mystical sense.
Deut 4:15-20=You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
From this scripture, it is quite clear that God wants us to focus on Him and not on created things as a source or an inspiration of wisdom. The New Testament concurs with this. Note:
Rom 1:18-25=The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.
Perhaps this verse describes the Fall of Man since Eve did in fact listen to a snake instead of to God. What do you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Abshalom, posted 02-15-2004 9:59 AM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Abshalom, posted 02-15-2004 12:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 12 (86424)
02-15-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
02-15-2004 10:39 AM


Re: Icon vs Idol
Phatboy:
Thank you for your sincere interest in the subject of idols, icons, idolatry, and iconoclasm. It indeed has far-reaching implications not only in the religious world, but in the secular world as well.
In the interest of time, may I simply introduce some information for further study and discussion.
The Exodus Story includes an episode recorded in Numbers 21 that during the wanderings in Sinai, the Israelites were complaining to Moses about God's provision. The story goes that God sent fiery serpents as a judgment.
There is speculation that the fiery serpents were a species of desert parasite that lays larvae in a person’s leg, and the larvae grow into very long worms (sometimes up to 3 feet long!) that can be removed by opening the flesh, attaching one end of the worm to a staff, and then winding the worm round and round the staff to extract it. Hence the comparison of the Nehustan to the twin serpent staff of the medical profession known as the Caduceus, or Staff of Hermes.
The Bible relates that in response to Moses' prayer for the people, God instructed Moses to set up a bronze serpent on a pole, and everyone who "looked upon it" would live.
[Numbers 21:4-9 re: the Bronze Snake (Nehustan)] They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; They spoke against God and against Moses, and said, 'Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!' Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, ‘We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the fiery serpents away from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. The LORD said to Moses, ‘Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.’ So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a fiery serpent and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
Some folks think this incident in the desert may have led to the Greek legends of Aescalapius, the god of healing, who was symbolized as a brass serpent on a pole, or cross; as well as to New Testament comparisons of Christ to the Nehustan.
Centuries after the Exodus Story (according to Bible chronology), King David’s son, Hezekiah, became disturbed when he discovered that the Nehustan was still around and in fact was being worshipped by some priests as a cult icon. (Shades of the Shroud of Turin)
Hezekiah had the Nehustan destroyed along with other idols worshipped by idolaters and altars erected for their worship.
[2 Kings 18:4.] (Hezekiah) removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
Phatboy, I think the point is that even when an idol or an icon is created with the best intentions in mind (in the case of the Nehustan, by direct orders from God), there is the danger that undue reverence will be given to such a totem, resulting is misguided individual worship and cult worship.
Anyway, that's the argument from the point of view of an iconoclast.
Peace.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 02-15-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 11 of 12 (86511)
02-15-2004 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
02-14-2004 5:31 AM


Re: How we think about God
That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular. Abraham Lincoln
Honest Abe! Good show!
Somehow I doubt that Abraham Lincoln said that. Source please. (It's been my experience that atheists tend not to talk about "truth of the Scrptures".)

Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-14-2004 5:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 02-15-2004 10:45 PM Cthulhu has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 12 (86533)
02-15-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Cthulhu
02-15-2004 8:08 PM


Honest Abe?
I just randomly grabbed it off of a quote sight. I did not check or verify the source but what are you suggesting? That Abe was an atheist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Cthulhu, posted 02-15-2004 8:08 PM Cthulhu has not replied

  
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