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Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
JRTjr01 writes:
Exactly where did you get that supposed quote? I'm usually very careful NOT to say there is no absolute truth.
Ringo writes:There is no absolute truth. JRTjr01 writes:
Neither. I am saying that I don't know of any absolute truths and I am asking you to give examples of what you think is absolute truth - beyond trivialities like "A and not A can not both be true at the same time". So far, you haven't been able to do it.
Are you asking me if there is absolute truth; or telling me there is not?? JRTjr writes:
I'm telling you that I don't know how there could be any reality independent of thought and I'm asking you to provide examples. Again, you provide none.
Are you asking me if 'there is any reality independent of thought'; or are you telling me that there is no reality independent of thought; and that we only think there is??? JRTjr01 writes:
I'm asking you to substantiate your opinion that absolute truth exists by giving examples. Why don't you just do that?
Are you asking me if it is possible to know that absolute truth exists; or telling me that we cannot????
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Exactly where did you get that supposed quote? I'm usually very careful NOT to say there is no absolute truth. Here Message 64Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Well, you got me there. I will gladly retract the denial and also the statement itself. It should read, "If you know of any absolute truths, for @#$%'s sake roll them out."
Exactly where did you get that supposed quote? I'm usually very careful NOT to say there is no absolute truth.
Here Message 64
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
removed as uncharitable. Take foot off of neck.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
will gladly retract the denial and also the statement itself. Kinda leaves the person you were debating in a tough spot, eh? He's been relying on what you said.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
If he was relying on what I said, he could have quoted it a long time ago.
Kinda leaves the person you were debating in a tough spot, eh? He's been relying on what you said.
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JRTjr01 Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 97 From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. Joined: |
Dear Ringo,
Thank you for your continued interest.
Ringo writes: I'm asking you to substantiate your opinion that Absolute truth exists by giving examples. Why don't you just do that? I have given examples; and you have belittled them as being trivialities even though a ‘trivial’ ‘Absolute Truth’ is still an ‘Absolute Truth’. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that TLoNC is the most trivial of all ‘Absolute Truths’ it is still an ‘Absolute Truth’ and, therefore, ‘Absolute Truth’ does indeed exist. So, since you have not rebutted of my evidence, as of yet, I can only assume you are unable to rebut it; and are just unwilling to accept the obvious. Speaking of obvious, if, as you suggest, there is no reality independent of thought then one of us must be arguing with ourselves because two entities having thought would represent a reality independent of the thought of the other entity. So, unless you’re going to say that we are all the same entity, the fact that I am having a conversation with you is evidence that there is a reality independent of thought; would it not??? Again, great fun,
JRTjr P.s. Thanks, NoNukes, for the help there; I thought I had not misquoted Ringo.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Thanks, NoNukes, for the help there; I thought I had not misquoted Ringo. I don't mind helping out, but I have to admit that ringo's accusatory take on the issue ("supposed quote") irked me just a bit. I suppose I'm old enough that I should let stuff like that go... Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass The only thing I suggest is that genes died as a result of all those people and animals dying in the Flood, whose traits were lost to the species and therefore the alleles for those traits, so the genes just died and remain in the genome as corpses. Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
JRTjr01 writes:
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's stipulate that extremely trivial absolute truths do exist. So what? What is the importance of absolute truth if it is only trivial?
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that TLoNC is the most trivial of all ‘Absolute Truths’ it is still an ‘Absolute Truth’ and, therefore, ‘Absolute Truth’ does indeed exist. JRTjr01 writes:
Their thoughts are (more or less) independent of each other - but their thoughts are not necessarily connected to any "reality".
... two entities having thought would represent a reality independent of the thought of the other entity.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
The quote was unreferenced, which was why I called it a "supposed quote".
I don't mind helping out, but I have to admit that ringo's accusatory take on the issue ("supposed quote") irked me just a bit.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What is the importance of absolute truth if it is only trivial? Personally, I believe in certain absolutes---absolutes such as love, humanity, character. I would argue that you are an absolute...you are certainly more than simply a relative!
Their thoughts are (more or less) independent of each other - but their thoughts are not necessarily connected to any "reality". Being connected implies a sort of communion. Would you be prepared to argue that humanity lacks communion? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
All of those can be expressed in a wide variety of ways, sometimes conflicting ways - e.g. "tough love". How are they "absolute"?
Personally, I believe in certain absolutes---absolutes such as love, humanity, character. Phat writes:
I guess you could say that science represents a kind of "communion with reality". Religion often does not. Being connected implies a sort of communion. Would you be prepared to argue that humanity lacks communion? Edited by ringo, : Changed "usually" to "often".
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JRTjr01 Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 97 From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. Joined: |
Dear Ringo,
I pray you are doing well.
Ringo writes: Their thoughts are (more or less) independent of each other - but their thoughts are not necessarily connected to any "reality". I can agree with that. My thoughts are not always ‘necessarily connected to any "reality"’ however, the fact that Their thoughts are (more or less) independent of each other lends credence to the fact that there is a reality independent of the thoughts of the other entity. In other words, it is not the ‘thoughts’ themselves that are ‘connected to reality’; but rather the fact that there is more than one entity having ‘thoughts’ that points to a reality beyond a single entity’s thoughts from a logical stand point. Would you not agree?
Ringo writes: Okay, for the sake of argument, let's stipulate that extremely trivial absolute truths do exist. So what? What is the importance of absolute truth if it is only trivial? My only point was that they do indeed exist; so whether or not they are trivial is irrelevant. Especially since ‘whether or not they are trivial’ is an ‘opinion’ not a ‘fact’; just like ‘I like chocolate Ice cream’ is an ‘opinion’ but ‘Hydrogen is a chemical element with chemical symbol H and atomic number 1. With an atomic weight of 1.00794 u, hydrogen is the lightest element on the periodic table.’ is a ‘Fact’. (Wikipedia.org / Hydrogen) On the question of its importance I’d like to, if I may, tell a short story to illustrate my point. High up in the Rocky Mountains many years ago there once lived a man in a small shack. He lived there all by himself and enjoyed the solitude and beauty of nature all around him. For many years he used a big rock to hold open his front door, and quite often it would come up in conversations on those rear occasions he had a visitor. Some people thought it was a hideous thing and that he should find something that looked better to better accent the fine log cabin he had built for himself, others thought it was a perfect touch to the ‘rugged, out in the wild’ look. Many years went by and that rock remained as the old man’s doorstop. Until, that is, one day a young graduate from a faraway collage went hiking with some friends. Through their wandering and meanderings they came across the old man and he invited them to come to his cabin for some worm coffee. It came to pass, as they were sitting on his porch, that the doorstop became the topic of conversation, as it usually did. The young graduate asked the old gentleman if he could pick it up and look more closely at it. ‘Sure, it’s just an old rock I found many years ago, go ahead, but watch yourself, it is heavier than it looks.’ The old man told him. So the young man picked it up and placed it on the table between them; he examined it closely. He then said to the old man: ‘I have just graduated collage; my major was geology, and I am almost certain that this rock contains gold.' So, just because you may think something is ‘trivial’ (like that rock) does not make it useless. Having Great fun,
JRTjr
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
JRTjr01 writes:
No. Many people have written about the Star Wars universe or the Star Trek universe or the Middle Earth universe. That doesn't make those universes any more real.
In other words, it is not the ‘thoughts’ themselves that are ‘connected to reality’; but rather the fact that there is more than one entity having ‘thoughts’ that points to a reality beyond a single entity’s thoughts from a logical stand point. Would you not agree? JRTjr01 writes:
So let's go back to square one. In Message 60, your first reply to me, you said:
My only point was that they do indeed exist; so whether or not they are trivial is irrelevant.quote:to which I replied in Message 64: quote:That seems to be where this rabbit-hole started. So let's dispense with the idea of "absolute truth" and go back to your original statement. What do you mean by "objective truth"?
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JRTjr01 Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 97 From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. Joined: |
Dear Ringo,
How are you?
Ringo writes: No. Many people have written about the Star Wars universe or the Star Trek universe or the Middle Earth universe. That doesn't make those universes any more real. Again, I agree 100%; But I think you missed my point. Even if almost everything each ‘entity’ thought was unrelated to any reality; since we have established that there is more than one ‘entity’; that, in and of itself, suggests a reality outside of our own thoughts. It is not ‘what’ is being ‘thought’ here; but it is the ‘what’ that is doing the ‘thinking’.
Ringo writes: What do you mean by "objective truth"? I explained what I meant by ‘Objective truth’ in my comments in Message #78.
JRTjr01 writes: ‘Objective truth’ means: ‘Something that accords with established or verified fact’, reality existing independent of thought (what people think) or an observer (No one has to see it to know that it is true, real, factual, etc.). ‘Objective’ ‘Truth’ as opposed to ‘Subjective’ ‘Truth’. I go back to my examples in my last post.
I like chocolate Ice cream’. This is an ‘opinion’; a ‘Subjective Truth’ because its truthfulness is ‘subject’ to my opinion; my likes or dislikes.
Hydrogen is a chemical element with chemical symbol H and atomic number 1. With an atomic weight of 1.00794 u, hydrogen is the lightest element on the periodic table. This is an ‘Objective truth’; that means it is true despite anyone’s opinion; anyone’s likes or dislikes. Thank you again for your continued interest,
JRTjr
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