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Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 202 of 213 (78665)
01-15-2004 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by P e t e r
01-15-2004 12:41 PM


You've never responded to this from Yaro and I for one would like to know how the soldiers "looking for wives" justifies it:
quote:
It still dosn't detract from the horror of it. These women were forced to marry the very people who have just killd their parents, brothers, sisters, friends, etc.
Who cares what the soldiers are looking for. It is still rape if someone is expected to serve as a wife to someone she is not willingly married to.
Do you disagree with any of this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by P e t e r, posted 01-15-2004 12:41 PM P e t e r has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by P e t e r, posted 01-15-2004 1:19 PM docpotato has not replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 213 (78672)
01-15-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by docpotato
01-15-2004 12:55 PM


I didn't justify it.
I gave a verse indicating that captives of war could be subjected to the captors desires in the context of persmission given in verse.
Do you disagree with any of this?
Myself, I find it all somewhat foreign.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by docpotato, posted 01-15-2004 12:55 PM docpotato has not replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 213 (78801)
01-16-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by sidelined
01-12-2004 10:16 PM


sidelined, a few answers to your questions.
Let me get this straight Jesus is God ,God is Jesus.Correct?
Scripturally that would be incorrect.
There are no verses in the bible that say "Jesus is God" or "God is Jesus" in those exact words.
About the closest you'll get is; Jesus is the son of God.
The later tends to signify some type of separation consisting of two.

Mark 1:1 Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God ;
Just what sacrifice did He make?
Blood.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood , that of the [new] covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins.
If He was Immortal to begin with then He has no death to face.
By immortal if you mean that he's not subject to death, I'd say you're incorrect. (again)
Mark 10:32
And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was going on before them; and they were amazed, and were afraid as they followed. And taking the twelve again to [him], he began to tell them what was going to happen to him: 33 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man shall be delivered up to the chief priests and to the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death , and shall deliver him up to the nations: 34 and they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again.
John 10:17
On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment of my Father.
Exactly what do you suppose happens to the sins He takes from you? How does he suffer?

1 Peter 2:21
For to this have ye been called; for Christ also has suffered for you, leaving you a model that ye should follow in his steps: 22 who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth; 23 who, [when] reviled, reviled not again; [when] suffering, threatened not; but gave [himself] over into the hands of him who judges righteously; 24 who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, in order that, being dead to sins , we may live to righteousness: by whose stripes ye have been healed.
Does He spend time in hell for you or what?

Acts 2:30
Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn to him with an oath, of the fruit of his loins to set upon his throne; 31 he, seeing [it] before, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither has he been left in hades nor his flesh seen corruption. 32 This Jesus has God raised up, whereof all *we* are witnesses.
Hope you find this helpful in your perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by sidelined, posted 01-12-2004 10:16 PM sidelined has not replied

Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 213 (78904)
01-16-2004 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by P e t e r
01-15-2004 12:41 PM


Peter,
What?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by P e t e r, posted 01-15-2004 12:41 PM P e t e r has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 206 of 213 (78956)
01-16-2004 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by sidelined
01-15-2004 7:40 AM


Because you are pressing me for a response I will give it to you.
I am having a hard time discerning how serious some debaters are, especially when they appear to be ignorant of basic christianity.
I believe you are questioning the efficacy of what Jesus did on the cross. Specifically, you are hung up with the fact that anyone can in theory be forgiven of all their sins no matter what they have done.
Basic theology teaches us that the penalty of sin is death, and that sin cannot be capriciously forgiven by God unless sufficent payment is made, unless atonement accomplished.
The requirement of God's word as expressed in His law demanded that blood be spilled as payment for sins. All of the animal sacrifices of the O.T. were types, micro-paradigms of what Jesus would do on the cross. The law required a firstborn lamb that had no spot or blemish to be sacrificed for sins. Jesus fulfilled all these types, (firstborn, spotless = sinless, no blemishes = perfect). God, validated Jesus's offering of Himself to be adequate payment for every sin ever committed, past, present, and future. This is why Jesus cried out on the cross asking the Father why He forsook Him. God transfered onto Jesus every sin ever committed. This means Jesus became the sin-bearer forsaken by God in those moments. He paid for sin by suffering on the cross.
IF a person turns to God and seeks forgiveness of their sins via what Jesus did then God promises to forgive them. God remembers that His Son paid for these sins and on this basis He can and will forgive a person of all their sins.
You ask HOW DOES this happen ? How can a vile evil person be forgiven.
When Jesus died, God validated His sacrifice to be adequate payment of every sin ever committed past, present, and future. The only catch is that any person wanting to be forgiven MUST receive this forgiveness by a continual act of faith.
All ths sins of the world are paid for but they are not actually forgiven to any given person until they appropriate what Christ did for them by faith.
The most vile and despicable crimes against humanity CAN/COULD be forgiven because this is how GREAT the sacrifice of Christ was.
You become forgiven by turning to God by faith in what Jesus did. You remain forgiven IF you continue relating to God in the exact same manner as when you first turned to Him (faith).
You are under the false belief that any person can buy an insurance policy for eternity by accepting Jesus through some one time experience and be forgiven forever regardless of what they do the rest of their life. This is Baptist theological nonsense of "once saved always saved".
You are only forgiven IF you are relating to Jesus via faith, which is not a one time altar call thing. And if someone thinks that Jesus will give you a license to go on sinning, then this is heresy refuted by Paul in Romans chapter 6.
God will forgive anything, if you act in faith upon the truth of the cross. You remain forgiven by continuing with God the same way you started. (Hebrews 3:14)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2004 7:40 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-17-2004 2:36 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 210 by sidelined, posted 01-17-2004 7:40 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 213 (79006)
01-17-2004 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Cold Foreign Object
01-16-2004 8:38 PM


Willowtree:
While I do not fully understand why the suffering of one person means that another should be forgiven that was not the question I was asking.
The question I was asking was: What made the suffering of christ any greater then that of other people that have been crucified or worse? I mean, assuming that christ was an immortal being, in that his consciousness can never die, why is it such a huge sacrifice for him to die on the cross? I know that it must have been a slow and painful death but many people have died in just as horrible ways if not worse.
Also you say that one must believe specifically that christ died on the cross and that he was god's son to have your sins removed. But how does this affect the people that never heard of Christianity like the Native Americans. Are they all damned just because they were not in the right place at the right time to hear about Christianity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-16-2004 8:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-18-2004 4:43 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

sloth2613
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 213 (79007)
01-17-2004 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-22-2003 4:59 PM


You assume that you understand why an atheist is an atheist. Wow, that is a bold statement. There are a lot of athiests out there. You suggest that the belief of God is incomprehendable to athiest. Well, then you must assume that the athiest point of view cannot be fully understood by you. However, you still assume that you know why and how we came to our points of view. Well let me give you my account. I simply see no proof of God. I have persued the argument and still find nothing. So, when you have an argument for me to hear that is not merely an assumption of my simple mind than let us hear it. Until then there are few who are interested in somebody giving a sphycoanalysis that is groundless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2003 4:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by crashfrog, posted 01-17-2004 4:01 AM sloth2613 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 209 of 213 (79008)
01-17-2004 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by sloth2613
01-17-2004 2:58 AM


You assume that you understand why an atheist is an atheist.
I would hope I understood - I am one.
Maybe you didn't mean to reply to me, in particular. Just so you know there's two ways to reply at this board: the red reply button under each message, and the white "Reply" button at the bottom. The difference is that the red button replies to specific messages (for ease of thread navigation) and the white one replies to the thread in general; that is, no message in particular.
It gets confusing if you meant to reply to one message but hit the red reply button on another message. For instance in your message it looks like you meant to reply to Willowtree, but the button you pressed addressed your reply to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by sloth2613, posted 01-17-2004 2:58 AM sloth2613 has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 210 of 213 (79014)
01-17-2004 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Cold Foreign Object
01-16-2004 8:38 PM


Willowtreee
I see the issue as you view it now,however,it does not even appear on my radar as I cannot personally fathom that the apparent need for bloodshed by God is in anyway consistent with a being who supposedly created the vast beauty of space,the immense complexity of life and the subtle intricasies of the forces underlying it all.I find a huge disconnect.It would be in analogy like me buliding a city on the surface of the moon with all the enormous concerns and details and complex ever changing issues and as I was going about my day to day juggling of extemely hard demands on my mind Iwas to suddenly fixate on a piece of dust and put in under the microscope and pay strict attention to the movement of denizens located thereon. Then with all the incredibly complex things occupying my time I am going to personally dote upon this piece of dust,demand blood sacrifice of animals,issue laws to it that I do not need to personally obey, involve myself in prayer and pleading, with immense galaxy sized [atbest] fingers I will manipulate political and social and personal issues when and where it so pleases me.
I could go on but this is just to illustrate why I cannot agree to the proposition.This most especially since my analogy is minute compared to what God would face.Thank you for yout presentation of your worldview it does state your position clearly.You have a good day.

"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-16-2004 8:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 211 of 213 (79279)
01-18-2004 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rand Al'Thor
01-17-2004 2:36 AM


What made the suffering of Christ greater than anyone elses suffering ?
This is your question and here is the answer :
Jesus was the only person to ever live who never committed a single sin, Jesus's suffering was voluntary on His part, and it was unfair because He didn't deserve it.
Jesus suffered because He chose to so the price would be paid for all sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-17-2004 2:36 AM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by sidelined, posted 01-18-2004 5:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 212 of 213 (79282)
01-18-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Cold Foreign Object
01-18-2004 4:43 PM


Willowtree
Jesus was the only person to ever live who never committed a single sin, Jesus's suffering was voluntary on His part, and it was unfair because He didn't deserve it
How did you come to the concusion that Christ was the only one who did not sin except through the bible which,its authors being human,can lie and bend truths to fit their agenda since without a messiah the bible falls apart?
A child being eviserated in the streets by a bomb packing lunatic or living in agony from napalm burns or choking their last breath from the inhalation of poison gas is unfair. Suffering is the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.The Jews of Dachau. Nobody deserves that shit.On a pain basis children in chemotherapy hurling their guts and crying from the cancer ravaging them makes a day on the cross look like a picnic on the beach with friends.
Sorry but that arguement will never hold water.

'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-18-2004 4:43 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 213 (90646)
03-05-2004 5:21 PM


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